Intro: The Book of Isiah: Unraveling The Biggest Myth in Sports
Chapter 1: The Roster: Worst in Sports History?
Chapter 2: The Past: Rewriting Isiah’s Resume
Chapter 3: The Salary Cap Myth: Pure Media Madness
Chapter 4: The "Mistakes": Mountains from Mole Hills
Chapter 5: The Drafting Genius: Isiah the Prophet
Chapter 6: The Trades: Turning Weatherspoon Into Wine
Chapter 4
The “Mistakes”: Mountains from Mole Hills
Pop Quiz: Which has been Thomas’ only MAJOR mistake?
A) The Draft
B) The Trades
C) Free Agents
D) Coach Hires
While there was a widely held rumor that the August 2005 signing of Jerome James may have very well sparked Hurricane Katrina the following month, the answer is D. Thomas’ drafting has been stellar (see Chapter 5), his trades have rejuvenated a geriatric roster (see Chapter 6), and his free agent signings, the only area that can be legitimately criticized, cost the Knicks nothing in return.
A. Hiring Larry Brown: This was, by far and away, Thomas’s biggest error as General Manager. While virtually all media members (and this author) enthusiastically agreed with the signing at the time, Thomas is paid to be smarter than the rest of us – which he usually is. In hindsight, it is easy to see that Brown, who is at his best coaching veterans, was the wrong coach, in the wrong city, at the wrong time for this youthful Knicks team. Besides 59 games, much more was lost. Brown’s NBA record 42 line-ups, lack of steady rotations, and penchant disparaging his players through the press, stunted valuable opportunities to build team chemistry, personal player development (see Eddy Curry), and individual/team confidence. Residual effects of the 23 win season included the lowering of the draft pick received by Bulls in Eddy Curry trade, the lowering trade value of Knicks players, and Thomas’ worst GM decisions often came in attempts to please Brown (which is still 100% Thomas’ fault). Verdict: Major Mistake.
B. Salary Cap: See "The NBA Salary Cap: The Most Misreported Story in Sports"
C. Steve Francis Trade: See "Turning Weatherspoons into Wine: The Truth about the Thomas Trades"
D. Not “Lottery Protecting” Draft Picks in Eddy Curry Trade: As it stands the Curry trade will probably turn out to be a win-win for both teams in its worst case scenario. However, had Thomas insisted on “lottery-protecting” the picks, this trade would have turned out to be a steal of mammoth proportions. Surely, Thomas expected the Knicks to make the playoffs in 2006 and 2007 which would have resulted in mid-late round picks. But even so, Thomas also knows that injuries are part of the game and can affect draft standing which is exactly what happened in 2007. However, two years later Bulls GM John Paxson still insisted that he would not have made the Curry trade unless the draft picks were not lottery protected. So, if this is indeed the case, should Isiah have made the trade anyway? Yes, considering how rare mobile 7-footers like Eddy Curry come along. Verdict: Only a mistake if Paxson was bluffing. If not, no mistake at all.
E. Jared Jeffries Free Agent Signing: Signed as a defensive specialist in 2006 with the mid-level exception, many media have already pronounced it another Thomas free agent bust. Not so fast. The Knicks gave up no player to obtain him, and most teams DO NOT EVEN USE THEIR FULL MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION. Unlike other teams, a free agent for the Knicks is basically FREE. Overpaid? Absolutely… and the Knicks can afford it. Since the Knicks will probably be seeing Lebron James and Chris Bosh in the playoffs for the next 10 years (and now Garnett for the next 5), Jeffries’ defensive specialties may become more valuable than we all realize. In the playoffs, matchups are everything, and he could be dusted off the bench the way the Suns did with Kurt Thomas on Tim Duncan. Stay tuned. Verdict: Minor mistake at worst, playoff difference-maker at best.
F. The Last Word on Jerome James: In sports, there are two rare breeds of players who routinely get away with highway robbery: In baseball, it’s left-handed pitchers with a heartbeat, and in basketball it is 7-footers who can walk and chew gum at the same time. The latter is most often a losing gamble that many franchises keep taking, because well …size matters. Even a 10% chance that the big man prospers, may be worth the signing considering the potential payoff. Even if not, one extra big body on a Shaq or a Dwight Howard in a key playoff series may very well end up being a difference maker. So at a time when no player was taller than 6-9” on the Knicks roster, Isiah gambled on Jerome James, and he seems to have lost that bet. But besides James Dolan’s money and some terrible PR, what exactly did the Knicks really lose? James was NOT acquired through a trade. Nothing given up, but a roster spot. Bad signing? Yes. Falling sky? Not so much. The previous summer, the respected and revered Jerry West signed current Memphis Grizzlies bench warmer Brian Cardinal (a non-center!) at about the same cost as James. Unless you are a hoops junkie, chances are that you never heard of the Cardinal signing. And you owe it to yourself to explore why that is. Verdict: Minor mistake.
Final Verse: The great irony of 99% of media criticism that Thomas receives is that he barely gets blasted for the one REAL mistake that he made: the hiring of Larry Brown! And he doesn’t get blasted because most media members would have done the same thing, and so many members are personal friends with Larry Brown (see Mike Lupica). Of course, Thomas deserves considerable credit for convincing Dolan to rectify this error after one year against intense media pressure.
Has there been any executive in ANY sport who has been nitpicked and criticized so much about “mistakes” that amount to so little?; who has ever taken over a worse roster?; who is one of the best drafter’s in NBA history?; and who has traded so many dead bodies for young players with potential? If there is another GM out there in ANY sport that is comparable, please let me know who that person is, and we can evaluate fact-for-fact instead of media-report for media report. In the final analysis, the making of Thomas as incompetent GM is one of the greatest media magic tricks of all-time. Had he been fired this magic trick would have become his permanent reality and legacy. Now, it is this author’s prediction that the Knicks are 2-3 years away from being title contenders and Isiah will be able to finish his own script.
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Related: Starbury and Sarah: American Retail Revolutionaries
So far, this analysis has been very well written and very thorough and I commend it.
That said, I do disagree with this statement:
“However, had Thomas insisted on “lottery-protecting†the picks, this trade would have turned out to be a steal of mammoth proportions.”
It won’t be confirmed for a few years, but it has been widely agreed upon that the 2006 Draft was relatively weak because of the new eligibility rules. If the pick was lottery protected, the Bulls would have instead had the Knicks’ pick this year with the Knicks not having one in the deep deep 2007 draft.
Not sure it was Isiah’s plan, but it probably worked out not to protect the picks.
If the salary cap, as you contend, is no issue whatsoever, then there is no such thing as a bad GM, and their roster moves can’t be compared to those of any other team (who are restricted by the cap). You can’t judge a player’s performance relative to salary because, as you contend, their salary doesn’t matter as long they can contribute in some small way.
Even if that were true, you would have to consider that each underperforming player (James, Robinson, Jeffries, Francis) takes up a roster spot that could be used on a valuable contributor.
But your logic is totally cicular in that if you say up front that salary and the cap mean nothing for the Knicks, then you eliminate most of the major criticisms of Thomas and his inability to build a team that has any correlation betweeen performance and compensation. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the amount of money at Thomas’ disposal is not infininte, and though his bad decisions have less of an impact in New York than they would for the Clippers, they still matter. He is on SOME semblance of a budget; if he were not, he would be continuing to sign overrated players whose roles seemingly overlap for exorbitant sums, something that seems to have been stopped by an order from above.
One last thing: even if salary is no object, the players he has chosen to bring in (outside of the draft, where you are right on) have been HORRIBLE. Nate Robinson is bad, Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury on the same team was a horrible idea, the moment he signed Jerome James everyone shook their head, he got fleeced by Paxson for Curry, and the Randolph-Curry tandem is only slightly less ill-advised than Francis-Marbury.
– Marc – what I meant was that if it was lottery protected, the Knicks would have had the 2nd pick where they could have selected Ty Thomas or Lamarcus Aldridge. So THAT is why I say it would have been a “steal of mammoth proportions”.
– Bobbby, what I mean is that the salary cap matters for just about every team in the NBA – except the Knicks (and maybe the Mavs, depending on how Mark cuban is feeling). As for Jeffries and Nate, I believe that they both are definitely worth a roster spot. However, I’ll give you Jerome. …and yes it seems that SOME restraint have been given by Dolan this past year as evidenced by the Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor buyouts. But that is James Dolan’s decision to make and NOT THE MEDIAS. But prior to that i support nearly every single trade besides Steve Francis (who he has since rectified through the Randolph trade) So tell me, what did the Knicks actually GIVE UP in all of this? And THAT is the question that everyone needs to ask themselves, a question that no one does.
It is not so much what they give up to get the players, it is what they are potentially giving up by overpaying these subpar players. The reason the Curry trade was so great for Chicago was not just that we got two draft picks, it was that we got rid of Eddy Curry and his enormous contract. Steve Francis is an above-average player, but when he has a massive contract, he actually hurts the team because that money could be used to get someone better in another spot.
I understand you are saying the salary cap doesn’t matter for the Knicks, but you are just wrong. It matters less, but still matters. By polluting your roster with lesser players with bad contracts, you hamstring yourself for future trades. Why weren’t the Knicks ins the running for Garnett, Gasol, Kobe? Because they didn’t have anyone that other teams wanted, in large part due to their contracts. Even if the salary cap didn’t matter for the Knicks, they do not operate in a vacuum, and the fact that salary cap matters for everyone else means their disregard for it affects them. when dealing with other teams.
Bobby, I don’t share your opinion that the Curry trade was great for Chicago. Their frontline is full of great defender but have no low-post offense besides Deng. If they had curry back, the Bulls would be right there for the championship. Secondly, Curry’s contract is not enormous at all (it’s around 10 million).
…Steve Francis is no longer with the team.
This whole Thomas appologizing is not standing on good legs. You are looking everything from the angle you want to see. You forgot signing of Vin Baker. You approve throwing money like leafs, which on the other hand means raising tickets for the games. Fans should not pay for Isiah mistakes.
If Larry Brown was given green light the first season, Knick would have been in playoff previous season.
The other side of the story is that Knicks have been in the playoff only Isiah’s first season, with Layder’s roster plus Stephon and Muchie Norris. Since then, it has been three years and not even close. If you follow NBA closely, our former coach Jeff Van Gundy was fired for not being able to go pass first playoff round. Isiah’s Knicks have not reached that point yet, and that point I am sure they will never reach.
Nenad, You are obviously an uniformed Net fan who falls into the category of fans the author is talking about. Jeff Van Gundy Left on his own terms after 911 which he stated losing a friend that day and wanting to spend more time with his family as reasons for leaving. All a bunch of crap because i knew the momment he said that he wanted to leave because he knew the team was going down hill. Convieniently he took off one year to take a job with Houston. The fact that you or anyone else debate the facts that this man has obviously put more time and research into shows that you are blindly hating on Isiah for whatever reason and believe these blatant half-truths and misleading articles by a biased media. Modi keep up the great work.. I used to hate Isiah as a player and didnt feel one way or another about his hiring in NY, but it is so obvious to anyone with half a brain who followed this team over the last 10 years that this team compared to the one he took over is like night and day. I was tired of seeing the Knicks run the offense through a gimpy Houston. I was feed up with 6’9 PF’s and C’s getting the ball smacked back in their face. There was no glimps of hope or any kind of future to look forward too. I wouldnt trade this present team as is for any other team besides the the early 90′s Knicks. Yes i would take this team over the LJ lead team just off of potential and youth alone. Even with all of the loses and non-playoff seasons the last two years there have been so many great moments from these young guys and the team has atleast become interesting again.
Bobby, I’m going to hit your points one by one:
“If the salary cap, as you contend, is no issue whatsoever, then there is no such thing as a bad GM”
Part of being a good GM is knowing the owners/franchises limitations. For Isiah, using the mid-level exception for Vin Baker, Jerome James and Jared Jeffires was like having a free coupon. You gave up nothing to take a risk that either of these high volatility players would pan out. If you are the GM in Phoenix you can’t take this risk. If you are the GM in NY you are paid to take these risks. (it is much like the Yankees paying over paying for Clements in hopes it puts them over the top – obviously it was bad value, but only for a poorer franchise). If you are wrong with the mid-level it is virtually meaningless.
“…you would have to consider that each underperforming player (James, Robinson, Jeffries, Francis) takes up a roster spot that could be used on a valuable contributor”
Wrong again. In the NBA a roster spot is not that dear, unless it forces you on the margin to lose control of a player you are trying to develop.
“But your logic is totally cicular in that if you say up front that salary and the cap mean nothing for the Knicks, then you eliminate most of the major criticisms of Thomas and his inability to build a team that has any correlation betweeen performance and compensation.”
Exactly right. Because of the wealth of the franchise the Knicks do not have to make marginal decisions with the salary cap in mind. Almost every other franchise does. Therefore Isiah is not judged on the efficiency of his use of mid-level, he is judged on his ability to draft, and his ability to swap players on his roster for better players, while not increasing the total yearly salary expense. If you look at his trades, what Isiah has done is to improve the current talent and future prospects, not by adding salary today, but by commiting salary in the future that the team will pay anyway. If you look at the individual salary commitments on the current team (aside for the mid-levls signings) they are all pretty good value save for Stephon. Granted, if the team does not follow through with improvement then Isiah will have been deemed to have been a bad GM, but it is hard to argue that this year’s team, at least, on paper isn’t better than last years.
“Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the amount of money at Thomas’ disposal is not infininte, and though his bad decisions have less of an impact in New York than they would for the Clippers, they still matter. He is on SOME semblance of a budget; if he were not, he would be continuing to sign overrated players whose roles seemingly overlap for exorbitant sums, something that seems to have been stopped by an order from above.”
Wrong. You have to separate the mid-level moves from the other moves. The Knicks do operate on a budget, but is a yearly one, not one that looks at the Present Value of committed salary. Because of the value of the franchise they don’t have to be scared by a long term salary commitment like other teams. In fact, if you look at their current commitments they will have the ability to sign a max free-agent in 2 years.
“One last thing: even if salary is no object, the players he has chosen to bring in (outside of the draft, where you are right on) have been HORRIBLE.”
True, but again, what Isiah does with the mid-level is like a Call Option. If the player pans out its great if he doesn’t, so what.
“Nate Robinson is bad”
Really. Look at the players drafted ahead of him: Julius Hodge, Antoine Wright, Yaroslav Korolev, Fran Vazquez, Ike Diogu, Martell Webster. Was that really a bad pick.
“Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury on the same team was a horrible idea”
Agreed. The Francis trade was the only poor trade initially, but he made up for it by swapping Francis for Zach Randolph, so net net it was pretty good.
“the moment he signed Jerome James everyone shook their head”
you only shook your head if you were not a knowledgeable basketball guy. $6MM per to take a chance on a 7 footer is never dumb if you are a wealthy franchise. Take a look at what bums like Chris Mihm and Adonal Foyle get paid. Every team in the NBA has someone like James on their roster.
“he got fleeced by Paxson for Curry”
wrong. Eddy Curry, Wilson Chandler, & Renaldo Balkman for Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah. Most GM’s would make that specific trade today. Additionally, the great GM Paxson was then forced to lose Tyson Chandler and overpay for Ben Wallace. I’ll take Curry with his salary over Ben Wallace with his.
“the Randolph-Curry tandem is only slightly less ill-advised than Francis-Marbury”
why? Curry is a low-post player and Randolph likes the high-post. Seem like a pretty good match to me. Also, NY isn’t Portland or Indiana. The cops aren’t sitting around looking for black men in nice cars coming out of clubs at night.
Bumby401:
What part of my post says anything about Nets?
Can you even imagine what Knicks fans think about Isiah?
He should not be fired for his ruining the Knicks, he should be jailed.
As far as mentioning half a brain, anybody who knows Isiah with microinch of brain would not want any part of him ever again.
What Knick team are you talking about?
Isiah switched from old to young, but not from bad to good.
His main strength draft, that is so celebrated is this.
He always draft shooting guard with no defense or small guard that cannot shoot.
Chemistry on this team does not exist, it cannot exist because it consists of first-me players. Isiah did not have a good chemistry in Pacers as never got past first playoff round.
It would not take long time this season for all weaknesses to come out. First 20 games of the schedule will be extremenly tough, and I would like to see opinions again after 5-15.
nenad,
1st off, i am a knicks fan . This is the team ive been rooting for for well over 20 years. I have seen the difference in what we have compared to what we had before isiah and there is no doubt that this team has improved. You are still saying the same nonsense the media has been feeding you. What is it that IT did that he should be locked up for ?? The trial?? the same trial the judge himself stated that the prosecution had a weak case against IT at best? You jump on this stupid bandwagon of hate and obviously dont read everything the Author of this piece has written and still say things like “As far as mentioning half a brain, anybody who knows Isiah with microinch of brain would not want any part of him ever again”. Once again as stated earlier, there is no other gm in the league who has ever done so much when given so little to work with. Your argument is one of baseless hate , and if you had a leg to stand on you would use facts to dispute what is in this article instead of using the same old tired buzz words you hear from the media. nothing you have said is based on fact, its all opinion. You think youre right? prove it and show me what it is about this article is untrue..
Bumby401:
I do not read NY newspaper so much, because I live in Canada. I am also a Knick fan since the mid 80′s, not a hater. I have by the way a great collection of Knicks games on DVD from that period. I came from Serbia, and you would not believe what things I did to watch overnight, for example 94-finals. I manually mounted satellitte dish to watch the Knicks.
My present view is based on number of wins. If you see Isiah as somebody who can even make Knicks competitve, you are wrong, or you do not want the prosperity of this team.
So let me respond on your nonsense:
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I have seen the difference in what we have compared to what we had before isiah and there is no doubt that this team has improved.
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What improvement you are talking about.?I would say that you read the newspaper pretty much, and only rhapsody to Isiah’s young players.
Based on wins, Isiah did not improve Knicks a bit, since he took out GM position. As I said before, Isiah only got young players, but while those youngs are overhyped in NY, in any other NBA team these players would be just average. Who was again at all-star game last year from the Knicks roster? Larry Brown wanted most of these players gone after a one month, and that would be proved really soon. To me current roster looks like a collection fantasy league players with no chemistry and defense.
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there is no other gm in the league who has ever done so much when given so little to work with
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Now this is really peace of work. Isiah has infinite financials to work with. List me any GM in the league who is allowed such a freedom to waste the salary cap. Imagine San Antonio GM with these resources.
You are really unbelievable Isiah’s apologizer, and guy is a flat-out moron.
nenad, I won’t address some of your ridiculous statements, but will address this one as it is a legitimate which is your last statement that “Isiah has infinite financials to work with”.
Yes, you are correct about this very imortant and unique advantage. But what makes Isiah a great GM for the Knicks was that he RECOGNIZED this ONLY advantage milked it and Dolan’s dollars to improve the team. If you recall virtually every single media member could only talk about “getting under the cap” and “try to get a Steve Nash” the way the Suns did it … blah, blah, blah… Media members were espousing a lotto strategy (detailed in “the Salary Cap Myth”) and Isiah did the opposite. So Isiah deserves all the cridit in the world for using that tool. His only option was to trade expiring contracts for talent and take on big contracts (see Malik & Jalen Roses) to stockpile draft picks that netted solid young players. if you recall both Rose trades at the time, the media KILLED Thomas on them… It is everybody else who was the “moron”, and Isiah was right… time to give the man his due…
One can only be an “unbelievable Isiah’s apologizer” assuming Isiah has done a bad job. Understand that I’m not “apologizing” for anything that Thomas has done. I am accurately assessing the performance of a man who saved the franchise an 8 tear turnaround project like the 1999 Chicago Bulls (the last time a roster had as little future talent as the 2003 Knicks). I’ll say it again, i am a fan first and would be the first in line to send Isiah packing if he did a bad job. But I have no illusions about the roster that he took over 3.5 years ago, and what kind of overhaul job that was. …a real fan must look at the house at what it can become, not what it is…
MODI:
I would expect that you give me some answers, but not some text with no meaning. You have to accept the fact that Layden is gone four years ago. Isiah in FOUR years could not win 40 games with all his resources. That can happen only in the corporation(donation) of genious Dolan.
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His only option was to trade expiring contracts for talent and take on big contracts (see Malik & Jalen Roses) to stockpile draft picks that netted solid young players.
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Jale Rose for example cost Knicks 35Mil, and it net Rolando Balkman. Jalen Rose was barely used, so for the Balkman you pay upfront 35Mil. Find me another sane GM in the league who would give 35M to that guy. I am not sure he will get such a contract in a few years.
Your whole book and concept, while interesting to read is just another nonsense. You are apologizing his all bad moves with some explanation about young talent. Tell me, how long is that gonna be the case. I can already imagine another set of incoming phrazes. Next season if Knicks won 30 games again, there will be original draft pick available and Isiah can draft young talent.
Every Knick fan who approve Isiah is comparable to alhocolic who says “after this last drink there will no another one”.
“Jale Rose for example cost Knicks 35Mil, and it net Rolando Balkman. Jalen Rose was barely used, so for the Balkman you pay upfront 35Mil. Find me another sane GM in the league who would give 35M to that guy.”
Yes, EXACTLY! Renaldo Balkman (via Jalen– who is incidental to the conversation) cost the Knicks around 35 million (includes Jalen’s luxury tax). And James Dolan was willing to pay that price tag to make his team better. And as a fan, I am happy that he did. EVERY OTHER GM in the league wouldn’t do it ONLY because their owners would not allow them to, and the salary cap has a different meaning for them. It has nothing to do with their “sanity”.
Is Steinbrenner “insane” for pay 1M per start for Roger Clemens? Is Theo Epstein “insane” for paying $51 Mil to just TALK to Dice K? No, they are not insane at all. They can simply afford that luxury that most teams can’t. Now I go in great detail to explain why the Knicks are different from the other 29 teams in “The Salary Cap Myth”. http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131 Now if you find ANY flaw in the logic there, please comment on it in that section and I will clarify. If there is any factual innacuracy, then I will ammend it, and cite your name for good measure.
I am more than willing to listen to logic and reason. But if all you’ve got for me is that your moral sensibilities are offended by the essential “purchase” of Renaldo Balkman at such a high price, then that is your internal ethical issue to deal with. But as a FAN, I am very happy that Isiah and Dolan made the Balkman “purchase”. The Knicks are a better team for it. There is simply no denying this fact. Or do you really want Antonio Davis to come back out of retirement and give Balkman back? Now, pleeeeeeeese tell me that this is not what you are suggesting…
I really enjoyed Bobby’s analytical post and the broken record like response you provide Modi. I know you gave the link to the Forbes article and until/unless someone reads it, s/he will not understand the nexus of your argument. The nuance that Bobby suggests is a useful one because I’m certain that MSG has “some” concern about the luxury tax they must pay and the amount shown as lost revenues. Forbes, in citing NYK as the most valuable NBA franchise also sets Dallas Mavericks off with an asterik because the owners control the venue where the teams play.
The next bit of understanding revolves around sunk cost (money already spent) and property value (or the amount contributing to the net worth of the franchise). Look at the net worth of the Knicks before IT became GM compared to today. I know that we fans want wins and losses to be commensurate to the value of the franchise. Problem is that NBA and sports economics don’t work that way. I want my owner to pay top dollar every time for the player that may improve our chances to win. If the team can parlay that into increased franchise value, then as a fan, I stand a chance that the owner will continue that trend of spending.
We’re talking about a team (prior to IT) that players like Eddie Griffin (SRIP) turned down as an undesirable place to play. Today, people are chomping at the bit to get to the Mecca. Better still, the luxury lounges and suites will be filled (making up for the knuckleheads with the fire Dolan posters). Those guys in suits are not as gung-ho or obsessed about the score like we are. The game is like some “white noise” in the background as they discuss multi-million dollar deals and the best felatio/cuninglus they’ve ever had or given.
Lastly, consider the time of day that we’re living. The Dolans are trying to buy back the public shares and make the company private again. The medi hypcocrits think the NYK is a public asset and therefore theirs to ridicule, call wacky or dysfunctioanl as their daily whipping boy. It could have worked to the Dolans’ advantage thereby reducing the value of the shares that he would pay to shareholders. Unfortunately that is not happening. The value of MSG sahare is staying strong and if the shareholders vote to sell to the Dolans, theu will have to pay close to the Forbes estimated value ($592 million).
KFL
thanks steady, come to think of it I should have probably delved deeper into the franchise net worth point. Will probably do so in the final version…
OOO said: “you only shook your head if you were not a knowledgeable basketball guy. $6MM per to take a chance on a 7 footer is never dumb if you are a wealthy franchise.”
I say: His actual salary is $5.4 million. The league average for centers is $4.67 million. Overpaid? Yeah, I guess he is for what we’ve actually gotten out of him, but not by all that much. I was certainly leary of bringing in a center with a nickname like Big Snack but think that the screaming over his signing has been overdone. Its not too hard to envision him as a useful backup center if he could ever stay healthy. If that had been the case, his deal wouldn’t seem as bad. In fact, were he healthy, I don’t believe his contract would have prevented him being traded. As it is, he was a gamble that didn’t pay off, just like Vin Baker.
Damn this discussion is getting serious. I’m hoping that one day…just one day…a truly knowledgeable hater comes in and whips you guys.
I’m not starting nothing…just saying..
why? Because I’ve never come across a knowledgeable hater. Just haters with lots to say.
Will never happen BARF. You see, the veil of hypocrates (woven with threads of hate, greed, jealousy and hypocrisy) does not allow knowledge to flourish. The veil stifles and stunts the growing mind. When challenged, haters just spew venemous hyperbole.
KFL
Sadly, the “minor mistakes” of Jared Jeffries and Jerome James are becoming more and more major. The roster spots eaten up by those two are going to be the reason that three of the following four players are not going to make the team: Nichols, Jared Jordan, Fred Jones, and Houston.
I’d rather have any of those players over James or Jeffries. Now, is it going to be the difference for even a handful of games? Hard to say, but sometimes these moves can make a legitimate difference. Look at the major minutes that the end of the Knicks’ bench had to play towards the end of last season because of injuries. Also, keeping Nichols and Jordan would allow them to be potential contributors in the future. Now they’ll have to contribute to another team.
Marc,
I disagree that either JJ was a minor mistake. Having big bodies that can play the 4 and 5 is a good problem to have. They either give you a scout look or become tradeable asset. The devolution of James is another story and if he can’t get on track from his knee condition, medical retirement becomes the next option. Someone will help NYK eat that contract.
Look at Jeffries’ game in DC. He was a difference maker and they would love to have him as they’ve love Etan Thomas. The DC bigs were always fighting anyway so one was going to be moved one way or another. The problem with JJ’s contract is the 15% kicker. In terms of his game, he can play 3 positions but must get his confidence back. The NYK script has already been set since DRAFT night, we the fans are in the dark so we just blog.
KFL
Marc, big bodies are always more important than having 5th and 6th guard. jeffries defense at the three make him a unique player and not even worthy of being in the discussion. Forget Jordan. I just don’t know about Nichols… he really should have gone overseas. However, I will entertain the Nichols over James argument as a spot where reasonable people could disagree. ….but 6 fouls at the center slot is just a valuable piece should we run into Shaq or D.Howard in the playoffs. Houston might spell Nichols…
BARF, you freakin nailed it, I think what has been most dissappointing with hater feedback on this article series is that it is so baseless. It is just a bunch of adjectives and rants about “isiah sucks†but no substance. If i had to pick one single area that I am dumbfounded by, it is the inability or unwillingness to try to understand the relative non-meaning of the salary cap for the Knicks. Any review of the facts should answer these questions, but its like the media vultures have repeated it so many times for so long that people’s brain wiring is permanently damaged on the issue. The whole salary cap thing is a scientific study in brainwashing… very disturbing…
Hey man, you’re doing a good job making this argument. I have one objection that I think is important.
The is a problem with being over the cap, and it has nothing to do with free agents. The problem with all the big contracts (for players like Jeffries, Q, James, Randolph) putting us over the cap is that we can’t trade for good players. Any tradeable good player would have an expensive price tag. Because the Knicks are over the cap, they have to give back close-to-equal amounts of salary, which isn’t really a bad thing on its own. However, no team wants to take on the contracts the Knicks and give up a great player, unless the Knicks include multiple 1st rounders. I mean, the Knicks gave up two 1st-rounders for Curry (luckily it didn’t matter much). Imagine what they’d have to give up to convince Cleveland to take Randolph/Curry/Crawford+Q and Nate/Balkman/Chandler in a trade for Baron Davis or Arenas any top-20 player.
That’s why the contracts mess them up.
*Forget about Cleveland. First I was going to say:
Imagine what they’d have to give up to convince Cleveland to take Curry/ and Nate/Balkmanin a trade for LeBron.
Then I changed my mind.
Danny K, thanks for posting. Actually the Knicks can combine soon to be expiring contracts with young players to pull off a deal. Marbury and Malik come off after next year, so that is a viable option. Look, the Lakers just got Pau Gasol for Kwame’s expiring contract and very late 1st rounders…
Note: the Knicks gave up one pick for Curry and one swap (Knicks got Wilson Chandler)
No matter how you slice it, Lebron ain’t getting traded!!!
Oh, LeBron’s going nowhere. Yeah, I didn’t mean to mention him.
I know they switched picks with the Bulls, but they gave away 2 lottery picks and a 2nd rounder and they got back a 22nd(?) overall.
I know the Knicks have Marbury and Malik to trade, but I wouldn’t want to trade away draft picks anymore. The Lakers now have Kobe and Gasol. Their draft picks are clearly going to be in the mid-20s. I wouldn’t want the Knicks to trade away more lottery picks (or even 15-20). If the Knicks could trade the 2008 and 2009 1st rounders and Malik Rose and David Lee for Pau Gasol, I wouldn’t do it in a million years.
That’s why I’m saying it’s bad to get people like the JJs on the book for big contracts. It would be better to sign more conservative contracts. This offseason, we should have traded Marbury to the Heat for Jason Williams and Ricky Davis. Then we definitely could have been in the running for someone like Gasol, Kidd, Marion, Artest, Ray Allen or even KG. We would have to give up Lee in a trade for KG, but I’m fine with that. We could also probably get Artest easily without giving up Lee.
We’re very limited, and I think that’s a big problem.
No, I wouldn’t do that Pau trade either! But that scenario is giving up much more than LA and Pau ain’t the right guy for us like the lakers.
I honestly don’t see the logic at the end here. JJ’s contract has absolutely no bearing on trade possibilities. He was an irrelevant free agent signing. If we never signed him, we would be no closer or farther from a trade. Also, we had absolutely no chance at KG. It was Chicago who probably had the best chance (and for Gasol). Here is the thing: if you are $1 over the cap or $50 million, it makes absolutely no difference for the Knicks.
BTW, I think that we will end up getting Artest… maybe even as a mid-level exception… maybe wishful thinking…
Big contracts go either way. Though it is difficult to trade a highly-paid player in the midst of a big contract, this contract makes him much more attractive in trades later on when it is due to expire soon.
MODI, the big contracts do have bearing on trade possibilities in the sense that no one will take them. If we used that money wisely on decent, young players who deserve that much money, or at least on shorter contracts, we would be more flexible to trade.
Panzeh, I agree that they go either way. But with a big 5-year contract, it hurts your trading possibility for 4 years, and then you have an expiring contract to trade one year. Is it worth it?
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