For Knick fans, the game against the Celtics was a nightmare. There will be no defenses, apologies, or excuses for this game. I just can’t muster up the silver lining found in a Renaldo Balkman 4th quarter dunk or Nate Robinson 3 at the buzzer. The performance was indefensibale. The final score was 104 – 59 – a loss by 45 points.
But as brutal as this game was, it won’t be nearly as brutal as the New York City tabloids in the morning. "Boston Massacre" would be a kind headline. However, there was no need to wait until morning to set off the continued media hysteria. The TNT broadcasters Ernie Johnson, Kenny Smith, and Charles Barkely were all over it, as was Reggie Miller. There seemed to be unanimous agreement that the Knicks "quit on Isiah" and that Isiah "lost the team". Then normally more reserved Ernie Johnson suggested that Isiah might be fired immediately. And Charles Barkely believed Isiah should be fired if they lose tomorrow night. The rest of the broadcast was non-stop mockery. Okay, fine. The Knicks performance deserved the mockery. But what about the whole "quit on Isiah" and "fire Isiah immediately" talk? Can we take a step back and pause for one minute?
Now don’t get me wrong, if nights like tonight become some normal occurence, I’ll wave the "Fire Isiah" banner myself. I am one of the few people left who believe that Isiah has been a very good GM (when measuresed historically against similar rosters that he inherited in 2003). But so far I have been less thrilled with his coaching this year, particularly, his substitution patterns. I really wish that he would start Renaldo Balkman over Q, and play Curry and Randolph together less minutes (no more than 12). There definitely was a short-term effect of the Isiah-Marbury bumping heads, and just hope there is no long-term effect. The Knicks go as Marbury goes. I also believe that Isiah the coach should get at least the month of December unconditionally to see this process through and make any adjustments.
But the big thing is before all Knick fans go absolutely crazy, shouldn’t we consider that:
1. One Game: Wasn’t it just one game? My calculater tells me that one loss = 1.2% of all the games played in a season.
2. "Quit on Isiah?" Didn’t they win their last two games including one against the Utah Jazz? Now if it is indeed true that the Knicks "quit on Isiah" (for the year – not one game, that is), why would the Knicks go out and beat the Utah Jazz on Monday? If they quit on Isiah, why now and not then?
3. Isiah’s Post Game Remarks indicated an alternative theory for their atrocious performance which he called the most selfish he has seen in his career (the # of assists might support this). It was something like the first time the Knicks have been on national TV in two years. Isiah suggested that each Knick seemed more interested in showcasing their individuality than they were the Knicks team. Considering the energy and hustle displayed in Monday’s Utah Jazz victory, doesn’t Isiah’s suggestion seem more plausible than the "quit on Isiah" theory?
4. What about History? On the TNT broadcast we were shown that the 1998 Portland Trail Blazers lost to Indiana 124-59 — the only team in NBA history to get their score doubled. Portland lost that game by a whopping 65 points - even 20 more points than the Knicks. Did they "quit on their coach"? Apparently not. what the broadcast didn’t tell us is that Trail Blazers team actually made the playoffs that year and went to the Western Conference Finals the following year. Now I’m not at all suggesting that getting blown out by 45 points is the best indicator of a playoff team, but only that it is quite possible to suck, ok, REALLY suck for at least one game, then dust yourself off, and then come back tomorrow. When it came to the broadcast’s "have you ever seen this before" talk, it would have been nice to hear Reggie Miller say: "Yes. Yes I have." Of course, Reggie also scored 11 points in that historic 1998 game (see boxscore). It would have been nice to hear such counter-perspective.
Moral of Story: Let’s all get off the ledge and watch some more games.
…damn
…Damn
…DAMN!
The Knicks got blown the fuck out.
Im a more recent reader of your column. And personally I love the stuff you are saying and have been drinking the cool aid since August or so. I have had allot of hope for this Knicks team. With that said… Im really wondering if we are seeing problems appearing that basically are a result of Marbury back on the team.
The first game back home w/ Marbury the Knicks played pretty terribly. This game looked to be the same thing again. I knew the game was over in the first quarter when Marbury decides to toss up a 3-pointer after a couple of dribbles between the legs…and *clank*.
So yes as Marbury goes there goes the team…I think there is something really wrong with this model. That was fine back in the day, but Marbury’s team mates didn’t want him back but Isiah brought him back. Is this the result?
-Papa J
How about this game: http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19921128&tm=NYK
Man the media just want to lynch Zeke. They are still pissed about the the whole Larry Bird thing.
Screw those fools in the media. The Celtics blow out most teams on their home court. Plus the Celtics lost the game before.
Freaking ESPN doesn’t even cover the NBA during the NFL season. They act like it doesn’t exist. Now all a sudden ESPN has breaking news that the Celtics blew out the knicks.
I haven’t seen those fools on ESPN so happy since OJ and Vick got caught.
Watch your back Zeke they are coming for you.
Also did the rockets quit last night when GSW blew their @ss out.
Nope………..I guess they were just tired or shots weren’t falling.
It looked to me last night that they quit after the first 3 minutes of the 3rd qrt. He11 it looked like yao quit after halftime.
Shhhh…………but don’t tell anybody that. Only the knicks quit on their coach.
PS……………..F barkley.
To be fair orign, the Knicks loss was FAR worse than the Rockets loss last night. And although the Celtics blow out a lot of teams at home, the haven’t beaten anybody so far like they beat the knicks. At one point it was debatable whether the Knicks would score 50 points in the GAME. The knicks were a last second 3 pntr away from scoring the least points in franchise history. That’s news. And when you play that badly on national tv you open yourself up to criticism. I will admit that the media takes perverse delight in the suffering of knicks but again, this season at least, the Knicks have given them plenty to ammo to work with.
Having said all that, it’s just one game and only counts for one L in the standings so the bigger story is how they respond. If they bounce back and play well this becomes a non-story, if however they continue to lose, they will become demoralized at some point and something will need to be done.
It’s a tough situation. Yes, it is one game, and yes, they had looked good the previous two games (and some could argue that the Jazz are a better team than the Celtics – I would say it’s pretty close).
But there is a pattern here, too. The Knicks, prior to their two game winning streak, had looked like they had quit on Isiah. They lost eight in a row, and the last three – the blowout in Denver (I could forgive that, it was the fourth game in five nights on the road, and followed a double-OT loss in Sacramento), the blowout at home against the Warriors, then the blowout again on the road in Detroit (not really a blowout, but the poor play in the first quarter was worse than anything quarter yesterday).
Now, once again, in a big televised game, the Knicks came out and gave no effort. I can take a loss, but I can’t take no effort.
I mean, it’s not like the starting lineup of the Celtics crushed the Knicks; the Celtic’s second unit (among the worst in the league) came in and stomped the Knicks’ second unit (among the best in the league). Jamal Crawford didn’t even try last night, on either end of the court, against a gimpy Ray Allen. Eddy Curry was chucking shots at the rim instead of overpowering smaller defenders.
The offense was terrible. I noted how many bad shots they took in the first quarter, and the first 18 minutes of the game (total output: 18 points). I’ll do a post about it tomorrow (my notes are at home), but basically almost every shot was atrocious. Bad selection, with two or three defenders around (the right situation to pass and exploit the Celtics overaggressive defense).
Defensively, the Knicks weren’t terrible, but they were bad. The Celtics missed a lot of easy jumpers (they will do that a lot), otherwise it could have been even worse.
It’s hard to say that they haven’t quit on Isiah the coach. I really think if they mail in another performance this weekend (tonight against the Bucks, or Sunday against the Suns, both at home) then you have to say what’s happening to Isiah the coach is what happen to Larry Brown (pure evil) the coach: the players have quit on him.
On the other hand, if they can redeem themselves with some good performances this weekend, and prove that they haven’t quit on Isiah… then I’m willing to write this off as one loss to a really good team.
I still say its just one lose to a really good team. The Celtics will only lose 2 games at home. Watch!!!
This team is going to win the championship.
So if the knicks quit on Zeke…..have the bulls been quiting on skiles??? When they were getting blown out.
Also I still say yao and the rockets quit last night.
Yao gave little effect at all.
The only reason it was that close is because the warriors starting fing off and shooting 3s.
I think i distinction has to be made between quitting in a game and quitting on your coach or quitting on the season.
I would argue that most teams quit games when getting blown out. Quit meaning, they realize they are not going to win regardless on what they do that night, so they give less than 100% effort. This is what I think you’re saying the rockets did last night (I didn’t see that game so I won’t argue the point) and i don’t think it’s that uncommon in blowouts. Heck, when a coach pulls his starters and plays the end of the bench, he’s essentially admitting defeat and has given up trying to win the game. And I think we would all argue that this is what the knicks did last night.
Now the larger question with the Knicks, is have they quit on their coach and on their season. Quit meaning have they already decided this season is worthless, so on a nightly basis they’re going to tune out Isiah and give less than 100%. Kenny Smith said they look like a lottery team playing out the stretch of the season. Now I don’t think this has happened yet, but it can happen (see Knicks under Larry Brown) and the way things are going the Knicks are in danger of this happening.
Exactly Jones. I can understand quitting a game – the season is long, no one (except KG!) plays hard every single game. Do you work your hardest every day at the office? So I can understand a situation like the Denver game, or even yesterday’s game, if they were isolated incidents.
But it’s worrisome when we are talking about four times in the last five games against decent opponents (the Bulls excempted). The Knicks didn’t just lose to the Nuggets, Warriors, Pistons and Celtics; they threw in the towel early in each one of those games.
This is very similar to the situation under Larry Brown, and I was totally in favor of firing Brown. He wasn’t in touch with the players, and basically quit on them, so they quit on him.
I hope that isn’t the case here, because Isiah, as far as I can gather, hasn’t thrown in the towel on the players. But they are acting like they’ve quit.
We’ll have a better idea after the next two games. If they can’t turn it around at home….
Papa J, firstly thank you for your readership. Big win tonight! No matter what happens I think that Isiah has done a good job as GM for filling the cupboard with talent from what he was given. However, I just haven’t been crazy about him as a coach as he doesn’t mix in enough of the defensive guys with the starters. Also Curry and Randolph must be limited in the amount of minutes they play together. A big part of tonights win was having only one of the big two in the game down the stretch. notice how good their D was. Also, good job by Fred Jones.
As far as Marbury goes, it is important to remember how well he played in the second half of last year. If this season gets messed up, you can probably trace it back to the Marbury benching, so your point is well taken.
SML, the only games that I can say they 100% definitely quit was on was the Warriors and Celts. We can chalk up Denver to being tired (4 in 5; double OT night before). And I didn’t perceive detroit as “quit”. However, is a 16 point comeback clawed out victory a reason to dispel the “quit on Isiah” theory?
Origin, ESPN is really bad, but the NYC papers make them seem like Ahmad Rashad covering Michael Jordan! They HATE Isiah with a passion… all because he doesn’t kiss their ass. The reporters ROOT for the Knicks to lose and couldn’t be more disappointed that they won tonight. He messed up their ready-made headlines.
Jones, I agree with and appreciate your distinction, they quit on THAT GAME. There is no debate about that,
Modi: I agree, tonight was a big win. The real difference? Marbury’s injury. I love Steph, but the team does play better without him sometimes. Especially because he can’t hold a guard defensively (Fred Jones and Balkman locked up Mo and Redd in the 4th tonight).
Also: Fred Jones. Told ya… Fred Jones + Q-Rich/Balkman in starting rotation = balance (see 4th quarter).
And Randolph is a beast.
In the Boston game, Isiah pulled ZBo after 18 minutes, Curry after 22 minutes, Steph at 21 minutes, QRich played 29 and Crawford played 28.
Isiah quit on his team…not the other way around.
He took both Zach and Curry after one quarter and neither of them saw time until the start of the third. When they went to the bench in the third, it was for good.
The players never quit on Isiah and it never seemed like it. The Boston game was out of hand almost from the beginning of the game. The Knicks rushed their shots on offense and all of the starters were guilty. Boston pushed the missed shots for easy baskets and cycle repeated…continuously….all game.
Chalk it up to a horrible loss…of historical proportions…but to perpetuate the TNT myth that the team “gave up” on their coach is to admit that you did not watch the game.
They definitely gave up the win. Isiah did that by giving up on his starters. But they haven’t given up on their coach.
He’s the only leader they have.
MODI
We need to get rid of Marbury! Zeke must undo his deal with
the Devil! Last nights Victory after Marbury removed himself to a injury as bogus as his terrible free throw shooting, you can see the truth! This is a better team without Marbury! If you can’t see the truth about Marbury MODI, I suggest you watch the rewind of last nights win! Zeke better get rid of Marbury before he goes down with him! Like it or not the team respects Crawford! They consider Marbury a Cancer!
SML, okay.. you have been the one talking up Fred Jones while no one else has and he did a fabulous job on Isiah down the stretch. But if Isiah doesn’t make the Lee for Curry substitution it would have been a wrap for the Knicks.
BARF, I see what you are saying, but the Knicks also have good reserves. When I say the Knicks “gave up for one game” I mean it not in a really bad way like the TNT guys, but moreso like the way Jones explained in 10. In the end it was no huge deal and the TNT guys were all out of line.
Peace, all i’m saying is that I need more time to evaluate whether the Marbury situation is not recoverable. Last november every Knick fan was saying the same thing, but he bounced back in the second half. Does this year’s tiff with Isiah make that impossible? Just want more time, that’s all. What if he turns in more performances like the Utah game?
My other issue is that i don’t believe that Jamal can run the point long-term no matter how much the teammates respect him as a leader. Perhaps Mardy in time, but he doesn’t seem ready despite progress made at the end of last year. I’m just requesting a little more time. As a lifelong Knicks and Yankee fan, i’ve learned that there are often calm’s after the storm. …Having stated that if the Bibby-Artest package comes down for Marbury-Lee, we do it.