

For the Record: I am a diehard Yankee fan; Andy Pettitte is one of my four favorite Yankees of the last 10 years (the homegrown guys: Mariano Rivera; Derek Jeter; & Bernie Williams); I believe that he used PED’s waaaay more than two times, and frankly, I don’t really care — at least not in that morally indignant sort of way. I didn’t really care in 1995, 1998, 2001, or 2007. I will cheer wildly for him the next time that I see him pitch.
For those who missed it, here is the Pettitte Apology Recap:
"In 2002 I was injured. I had heard that human growth hormone could promote faster healing for my elbow," …."I felt an obligation to get back to my team as soon as possible. For this reason, and only this reason, for two days I tried human growth hormone. Though it was not against baseball rules, I was not comfortable with what I was doing, so I stopped. This is it — two days out of my life; two days out of my entire career, when I was injured and on the disabled list," he said. "I wasn’t looking for an edge. I was looking to heal." …”I have the utmost respect for baseball and have always tried to live my life in a way that would be honorable," …"If I have let down people that care about me, I am sorry, but I hope that you will listen to me carefully and understand that two days of perhaps bad judgment should not ruin a lifetime of hard work and dedication. …I have tried to do things the right way my entire life, and, again, ask that you put those two days in the proper context. People that know me will know that what I say is true."
ESPN Media Reaction? So Michael Wilbon said yesterday on ESPN’s Pardon the Interruption that he believes Pettitte’s story. Steve Phillips says that “Andy Pettitte is a good person and a great competitor and that’s not going to change. So I think in this regard he did help himself.” As referenced in our recent post Jayson Stark doubled-up as Pettitte’s pro-bono defense lawyer. And then there is this from baseball analyst Tim Kurkijian:
“My guess is that he [Bud Selig] is not going to suspend Andy Pettitte, and I don’t think he should suspend Andy Pettitte. I mean, if we really look at this in 2002. A guy who used HGH a couple of times in order to get his elbow better so he can come back and help his team. If that is an offense that demands a suspension, then boy we are going to have a whole lot of suspensions out there…. There is a really big difference between using anabolic steroids and HGH a couple of times. HGH helps in recovery. It doesn’t make you bigger and stronger technically so I would be really surprised if a suspension followed this…"
Okay, there hasn’t been this much positive coverage about coming clean since li’l George confessed about that cherry tree. Is it me, or are we stuck in an episode of “Leave it to Beaver”? Kurkijian is correct that Andy Pettitte should not be suspended, but it is simply mind-boggling that Pettitte’s story is believed as gospel without any doubt or scrutiny. Why hasn’t Kurkijian or some of his colleagues even questioned whether Andy is even telling the truth? Why is no one bringing up the fact that Pettitte was also originally named in the Jason Grimsley bust? Or that his improved physique coincided with his workouts with Roger Clemens? Where was the whole “healing benefits of HGH discussion” BEFORE guys named Ankiel, Glaus, and Pettitte were busted? Barry Bonds could only wonder where Tim Kurkijian and all of these journalists were when he was rubbing lotion on his knees in front of a whole bunch of reporters.
The Pettite reaction on the part of Kurkijian and so many other journalists is just plain sad. Especially in the 4 year aftermath of "the Bonds treatment’. It is a study in people believing what they want to believe… a study in "cognitive dissonance theory"… a study in willfully going deaf, dumb, and blind. Andy Pettitte is just an aw shucks, down home, country boy who couldn’t possibly be trying to get an edge like well, a few hundred other baseball players. In closing, we will prove that the ESPN media situation has become stranger than fiction. They have managed to turn Mike Lupica into the voice of sanity: on the Sports Reporters this weekend he said: "The idea that a guy like Andy Pettitte can say I’m not like those… other guys… is a preposterous notion". …There: somebody said it.
UPDATE: At the time of posting this yesterday, I had not seen this article "Pettitte’s Apology: A Joke" by ESPN’s Jemele Hill. Hill, a past Bonds-basher if there ever was one, did an amazing thing here in separating herself from so many of her colleagues. She treated Pettitte’s apology the very same way she responded to flaxseed oil. Whether one agrees or not with any of Hill’s individual columns, she deserves much respect for having a very scarce commodity amongst ESPN columnists: Consistency and Integrity.





Thought that I would share some of the discussion on the article from BaseballThinkFactory (a wonderful site BTW) Here is some of the discussion: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/cosellout_tim_kurkijian_and_espn_andy_pettitte_cannot_tell_a_lie/
1. Larry Mahnken Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:41 AM
Or that his improved physique coincided with his workouts with Roger Clemens Regardless of possible PED use, Roger Clemens’ workout is well-known as being insanely intense. It’s not even remotely suspicious that a player’s physique would improve after taking up an intense workout regimen.
2. alskor Posted: December 18, 2007 at 03:08 AM
Funny. I heard Clemens workouts were always extremely intense, but it sure does appear his body changed dramatically after the time he started taking PEDs. There’s a story about how he made his wife go with him to a high school baseball field after a game and threw 100 pitches after he was pulled from a game early. Roger was always a workout warrior… until injuries bothered him near the end in Boston and he gained a little weight. Now, we’ve always said that he re-dedicated himself and got back in shape… but Im certainly questioning that account of things now.
3. Larry Mahnken Posted: December 18, 2007 at 03:33 AM
But Pettitte wasn’t working out that hard before Clemens showed up in New York. This is about Pettitte, not Clemens, and it should be expected that Pettitte would get stronger after taking up the new regimen.
4. alskor Posted: December 18, 2007 at 03:39 AM
#3- I dont see how this anecdotal evidence supports a clean workout regimen anymore than an HGH or steroid infused workout regimen… either one is an equally probable answer in many ways…
5. Larry Mahnken Posted: December 18, 2007 at 04:43 AM (#2648589)
I dont see how this anecdotal evidence supports a clean workout regimen anymore than an HGH or steroid infused workout regimen
Yes, PRECISELY. My entire point is that his getting stronger after starting a workout regimen that’s clearly more intense than what he was doing before is something to be expected. It doesn’t mean he didn’t use PEDs, but it’s not something that should have raised red flags in and of itself. And let’s not forget, the only thing that anyone has accused him of (other than sportswriters and internet posters) is using HGH a couple of times in 2002 to help recover from an injury. Everything else is speculation.
6. Bad Doctor Posted: December 18, 2007 at 09:29 AM
It doesn’t mean he didn’t use PEDs, but it’s not something that should have raised red flags in and of itself. And I don’t think the author is arguing otherwise. He’s arguing that, with his improved physique in mind, PLUS his mention in the Mitchell report, PLUS his mention in the Grimsley bust (I believe those two are independent of each other, no?), PLUS the questions about Clemens that alskor raises, why is the media so quick to say, “Oh, gosh, Andy explained himself, nothing to see here.”?
7. Skinner! Posted: December 18, 2007 at 10:31 AM
I’m sorry, how many times did Pettite get in front of a reporter and say he’s not involved in this, he never took anything, etc? Plenty. And now everyone is falling all over themselves to say what a good guy he is because he semi-apologized/admitted to doing something that was at least understood to be against MLB rules. Where are the questions about why he’s changing his story now? Why are the reporters just accepting his new version and not investigating it? I didn’t realize anyone watched the ESPN sports reporters anymore. What a horrific show.
8. aleskel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 10:41 AM (#2648751)
I’m sorry, how many times did Pettite get in front of a reporter and say he’s not involved in this, he never took anything, etc? Plenty.
really? The only time he was ever implicated before the Mitchell report was when Grimsley was busted and fingered him, which was a pretty shady situation. So he denied it then, and the subject never came up until now. IIRC, he was never accused specifically of using HGH.
9. aleskel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 10:50 AM (#2648759)
also, everybody who can should check out Neyer’s blog post today about the dubious athletic benefits of HGH
10. Skinner! Posted: December 18, 2007 at 10:57 AM (#2648769)
He also denied it several days before the report came out. So, he denied it at least twice that I can think of off the top of my head, and I believe he did it at least one other time. Multiple denials, then an admission, is enough to raise doubts to me about his veracity.
I’m not sure there is a material distinction between HGH and steroids in the sense that both were at least understood to be in violation of MLB rules. And that is also admitted by him (and everyone else who has said they took HGH) because they all claimed to have stopped because they felt guilty. If you want to separate them, you’re probably right that no one asked him whether he took HGH. I don’t recall anything being that specific.
11. David Nieporent Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:00 AM
PLUS his mention in the Grimsley bust (I believe those two are independent of each other, no?), Yes, except there wasn’t any mention in the Grimsley bust. As has been repeatedly pointed out, the report by the LA Times about the blacked out names in the Grimsley affidavit was called inaccurate by the government.
12. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:13 AM (#2648788)
I just love this quote. I thought he was talkinga bout BTF here. Let me amend:
The Pettite reaction on the part of Kurkijian Nieporent and so many other journalists BTFers is just plain sad. Especially in the 4 year aftermath of “the Bonds treatment’. It is a study in people believing what they want to believe… a study in “cognitive dissonance theory”… a study in willfully going deaf, dumb, and blind.
13. aleskel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:18 AM (#2648797)
flamewar! we got a flamewar here!
14. Joe C isn’t Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:23 AM (#2648804)
I just love this quote. I thought he was talkinga bout BTF here. Let me amend:
The Pettite reaction on the part of Kurkijian Nieporent and so many other journalists BTFers is just plain sad. Especially in the 4 year aftermath of “the Bonds treatment’. It is a study in people believing what they want to believe… a study in “cognitive dissonance theory”… a study in willfully going deaf, dumb, and blind.
Gee, kev, if you weren’t here, why I wouldn’t know what to think! Thanks for setting me straight on how I should see this issue.
15. NotLikely20 Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:23 AM (#2648805)
The traditional media sources are all in bed with MLB, of course they will defend the players whenever possible. I believe Selig truly wants to clean up the game through any means, but the MLBPA needs to agree to some of Mitchell’s recs, which is about as likely as PG criticizing a player and giving up one of his precious sources. ESPN analysts are looking at the players through the eyes of 12-year old fan-boy, in addition to a 65 year-old defense lawyer, and I’m sure they are just doing that because they feel like it….It’s sickening…it’s almost as if Don Fehr is writing the scripts for the talking heads.
16. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:26 AM (#2648809)
really? The only time he was ever implicated before the Mitchell report was when Grimsley was busted and fingered him, which was a pretty shady situation. So he denied it then, and the subject never came up until now. IIRC, he was never accused specifically of using HGH.
??? He denied using hGH through his teeth when he was implicated with Grimsley. Now he’s saying that, yeah, he used but only a couple fo times to recover from injury.
How stupid does he think people are anyway? He’s a lying, cheating sack of #### just like Bonds.
17. Harmon Microbrew Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:32 AM (#2648818)
also, everybody who can should check out Neyer’s blog post today about the dubious athletic benefits of HGH
Can’t read it — no Insider account.
However, on the topic of HGH, I enjoyed this article on the effects of HGH and steroids on an amateur athlete / journalist.
18. aleskel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:34 AM (#2648820)
He denied using hGH through his teeth when he was implicated with Grimsley
again, are we sure about that? If you have links to the articles that include his denials, I would love to see them. What I’m questioning is 1) was he accused of steroids, HGH, or a blanket “performance enhancing drugs”? and 2) what were the terms of his denials?
again, this is splitting hairs – I’m not arguing that Pettitte never obfuscated, but some of the accusations against him make it seem like he conducted a Pete Rose-stonewalling campaign
19. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:38 AM
I believe Selig truly wants to clean up the game through any means
No he doesn’t, he wants to pretend the problem doens’t exist so he wouldn’t have to do anything about it, and then he just wants the problem to quietly leave the minds of the fans and the media.
20. Harmon Microbrew Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:39 AM (#2648824)
again, are we sure about that? If you have links to the articles that include his denials, I would love to see them. What I’m questioning is 1) was he accused of steroids, HGH, or a blanket “performance enhancing drugs”? and 2) what were the terms of his denials?
“I played with Grimsley for a couple of years in New York and had a great relationship with him,” the pitcher [Pettitte] said before the Astros’ game.
“I guess reports are saying I’ve used performance enhancing drugs,” he added. “I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball. I don’t know what else to say except to say it’s embarrassing my name would be out there.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2609002
21. Huston Streets of Ben Francisco (CSC) Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:42 AM (#2648828)
I believe Selig truly wants to clean up the game through any means
Message posted from headbud-79-33-126.mlb.com.
No he doesn’t, he wants to pretend the problem doens’t exist so he wouldn’t have to do anything about it, and then he just wants the problem to quietly leave the minds of the fans and the media.
Not before he can club the MLBPA over the head with it.
22. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:44 AM (#2648830)
Thanks, Harmon. That’s the quote I was just googling for.
23. aleskel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:54 AM (#2648838)
I guess reports are saying I’ve used performance enhancing drugs,” he added. “I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball. I don’t know what else to say except to say it’s embarrassing my name would be out there.”
and therein lies the gray area. In 2002, did people think HGH fit the bill as a “performance enhancing drug”? Considering the medical evidence is at best inconclusive, is it fair to even call it a “performance enhancing drug” today?
yes, Pettitte obfuscated, and probably lied. But you have to acknowledge all the grey area there is in this whole steroids mess.
24. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 18, 2007 at 11:59 AM (#2648844)
Restorative, eh? Pettitte probably looked at that HGH as a super-strong cup of coffee.
25. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 12:00 PM (#2648845)
and therein lies the gray area.
Not really. He got his drugs through Grimsley and McNamee-illegally. If he were under a doctor’s care, he would have gottne the prescription directly from his orthopedist and not had to initially deny that he was taking PEDs.
26. Nathan Kunkel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 12:03 PM (#2648849)
“How stupid does he think people are anyway? He’s a lying, cheating sack of #### just like Bonds.”
Your guidance appreciated.
27. aleskel Posted: December 18, 2007 at 12:04 PM (#2648852)
If he were under a doctor’s care, he would have gottne the prescription directly from his orthopedist and not had to initially deny that he was taking PEDs.
you’re missing the point of my post. I agree that Pettitte broke the law by taking HGH without a prescription. Its the “performance enhancing” part that gets sticky.
28. Shooty in 2008! Posted: December 18, 2007 at 12:12 PM (#2648862)
For me there are two issues here:
The first is that PED’s are a freakin muddle that I don’t pretend I can make sense of. I’m prepared to cut guys a lot of slack as PED’s seem to have been ubiquitous and we aren’t even sure yet what they accomplish. I also believe people are entitled to their privacy and the witch hunt mentality of the steroid “crisis” is sickening.
The second issue is whether or not Andy Pettite is full of crap. I have little doubt that Pettite is full of crap.
So…a plague on all their houses. Everyone is dirty, myself included since I keep paying attention and keep funneling money into their coffers. Bah. Bah and humbug to it all.
29. Sam Hutcheson Posted: December 18, 2007 at 12:51 PM (#2648907)
Not before he can club the MLBPA over the head with it.
*BINGO*. Show him what he’s won, Bob. All of the gnawing and gnashing of teeth aside, that is the sole purpose behind the Mitchell Report, to shift public blame for the “steroids era” off of “baseball” and onto “the players association.” Go read King Kaufmann’s piece from today (I’m trying to get Sean to post it as a separate thread.)
http://www.salon.com/sports/col/kaufman/2007/12/18/tuesday/
It’s even helpfully self-referential to previous threads here.
30. Srul Itza Posted: December 18, 2007 at 12:53 PM (#2648908)
hGH is a latter-day version of snake oil. The touts will tell you that it will do everything for you, make you younger, stronger, faster, more virile, helps you heal quicker and leaves you with a better mental attitude, whiter teeth and cleaner breath.
I am still waiting to see something scientifically sound that shows that it actually enhances athletic performance.
While the players who took it may have had bad intent, I think they were actually sold a bill of goods by the dealers who got it for them. They were probably smoking oregano, and didn’t even know it.
31. Srul Itza Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:01 PM (#2648917)
. Now, we’ve always said that he re-dedicated himself and got back in shape… but Im certainly questioning that account of things now.
This is not necessarily inconsistent with PED use. In fact it can be completely consistent with it, since PED use allows players to work out harder and recover quicker. Sure, you may see some benefits if you take PEDS and don’t do anything else. But it seems that the ones who combined PED use with strenuous workouts are the ones who achieved the major benefits.
Now, you combine truly great talent with strenuous work-outs and PED use, and you get what appear to be the perfect storm — at least, until St. Barry is acquitted later this year, and the story line changes again.
32. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:05 PM (#2648920)
Its the “performance enhancing” part that gets sticky.
Not for me. He’s lying about that.
33. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:09 PM (#2648925)
While the players who took it may have had bad intent, I think they were actually sold a bill of goods by the dealers who got it for them. They were probably smoking oregano, and didn’t even know it.
From a literature POV, I agree, Srul but I work with a guy who powerlifts and has done a lot of PEDs and he insists hGH works as a PEd. I realize the evidence is anecdotal but still…
34. Srul Itza Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:14 PM (#2648933)
From a literature POV, I agree, Srul but I work with a guy who powerlifts and has done a lot of PEDs and he insists hGH works as a PEd. I realize the evidence is anecdotal but still…
Has he ever done only hGH? These guys tend to do everything.
And again, you have to get past the placebo effect: If he thinks it is making him stronger, he will psyche himself up to lift longer and harder, and then he will actually get stronger.
The thing about the people who get taken in by these things is, they don’t want to believe they were taken in. They want to believe they work. Nobody wants to believe that he was dumb enough to pay beau coup bucks for nothing.
35. Andy Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:20 PM (#2648940)
And again, you have to get past the placebo effect: If he thinks it is making him stronger, he will psyche himself up to lift longer and harder, and then he will actually get stronger.
The thing about the people who get taken in by these things is, they don’t want to believe they were taken in. They want to believe they work.
Sounds exactly like what Bouton was saying about greenies in Ball Four.
36. Srul Itza Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:23 PM (#2648947)
Sounds exactly like what Bouton was saying about greenies in Ball Four.
Except for, you know, all of the scientific studies that have done on amphetamines detailing their actual physical effects. Other than that, the comparison is spot on.
37. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:26 PM (#2648950)
And again, you have to get past the placebo effect: If he thinks it is making him stronger, he will psyche himself up to lift longer and harder, and then he will actually get stronger.
The thing about the people who get taken in by these things is, they don’t want to believe they were taken in. They want to believe they work. Nobody wants to believe that he was dumb enough to pay beau coup bucks for nothing.
Can’t deny any of this, Srul.
Just thought I’d throw that out there. These guys do think it works as a PED. Whether it really does or not…
38. robinred Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:31 PM (#2648956)
Andy,
Have you read Pennnant Race? I just read it a a couple of months ago–one thing I noted was that greenies are all over the place–much, much more so than in The Long Season. There are some Bouton-type statements about them, although it is less direct.
39. Andy Posted: December 18, 2007 at 01:57 PM (#2648988)
Sounds exactly like what Bouton was saying about greenies in Ball Four.
Except for, you know, all of the scientific studies that have done on amphetamines detailing their actual physical effects. Other than that, the comparison is spot on.
Srul, being “more alert\” in a laboratory doesn’t necessarily impart to you the incremental skills to be able to react to a 98 MPH pitch with any greater efficiency than you would have had if you hadn’t stayed up all night. The perception of added athletic skills concentration that Bouton alludes to isn’t the same thing as actually demonstrating any concrete results from that “added concentration.”
Answer this: Among all those scientific studies, have they ever given one set of MLB players amps, and another set of MLB players placebos, and measured the results? From all the certainty I read here about the wonderous effect of greenies upon baseball skills, surely there must be some study like this out there that you can cite.
If not, then I am at a loss to see how you make the jump from the lab to the ballfield. This is exactly what Bouton was getting at, and no matter how much he gets mocked or derided, I have yet to see any examples of where this alleged great advantage of greenies has ever shown up in a statistical line other than (anecdotally) games played.
I’ve never disputed Dial’s neverending point about “more games played = bigger counting stats totals,” but I’ve also said many times that if all steroids could do for a player is to help him recover from injuries faster, I’d have had no objections to their use, either, whatever the legalities or illegalities may have been at any given time. My only complaint about steroids is that they can add an extra level to a player’s natural born, properly rested talent, and until someone shows me a real life measurement of that effect for greenies on the baseball field, I’ll go with Bouton’s observation that their effect upon the skill of a well rested ballplayer is that of a placebo and wishful thinking.
Andy,
Have you read Pennnant Race? I just read it a a couple of months ago–one thing I noted was that greenies are all over the place–much, much more so than in The Long Season. There are some Bouton-type statements about them, although it is less direct.
I read that book while I was still in high school, and the main thing I remember about it was Brosnan’s description of getting hit in the nuts with a line drive. But since it came out nearly a decade before Ball Four, that does tell you about the ubiquity of amps. They were all over the campus when I was at Duke in the early and mid-60′s, too, though none of the players on my freshman baseball team ever seemed to need or use them. I guess they didn’t realize that they were throwing away what might have been a bunch of lucrative baseball careers, poor things.
40. JoelW Certified Red Sox Optimist Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:01 PM (#2648995)
I’m just going to turn this over to Carl of ATHF:
http://withleather.com/post.phtml?pk=4606
41. Harmon Microbrew Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:16 PM (#2649015)
From a literature POV, I agree, Srul but I work with a guy who powerlifts and has done a lot of PEDs and he insists hGH works as a PEd. I realize the evidence is anecdotal but still…
More anecdotal, from the article I linked in #17. At this point, the writer is taking HGH only:
After a few weeks of the HGH, I began to notice subtle changes. My skin started getting… better. Sun blotches that I’d had on my arms for a year faded away. One morning I woke up and a scar on my forehead—which I’d gotten from a mountain-bike endo two years earlier—was more or less gone. Even though I was training like a madman, I looked more rested. Younger. A little fresher.
Then I started to realize that my eyesight really was improving. I’d been thinking about getting glasses to read fine print on maps, but now there was no need. The glasses I used for night driving stayed in the glove compartment, unused, unnecessary.
Make of it what you will.
42. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:19 PM (#2649020)
Then I started to realize that my eyesight really was improving
I’ve heard conflicting info on this one. This seems like it’d be a huge help for hitting a baseball. Has there been any scientific study specifically on the effects of hGH on eyesight?
43. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:22 PM (#2649025)
That looks a little suspicious, Brew. I can’t believe hGH makes scars go away.
44. Harmon Microbrew Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:27 PM (#2649036)
That looks a little suspicious, Brew. I can’t believe hGH makes scars go away.
Like I said, it’s an interesting article. At the very least, I think the writer puts forward a pretty objective analysis of the effects the drugs had on him. Unlike so many other users who provide data on their effects, he isn’t pushing for or against their use or trying to cover his tracks or motives — he’s just reporting his experience.
That said, there are other possible explanations for his supposed scar reduction, for sure.
45. kevin Posted: December 18, 2007 at 02:33 PM (#2649045)
Acknowledged, Brewzer.
[...] On Tim Kurkijian and ESPN eating up Andy Pettitte’s excuses. [Cosellout] [...]
[...] On Tim Kurkijian and ESPN eating up Andy Pettitte’s excuses. [Cosellout] [...]
[...] arrogance forced the media into coverage [3]. ESPN reporters often went to absurd lengths to extend benefit of the doubt to Andy Pettitte’s steroid use. Now Favre’s selfishness is finally being exposed because the [...]
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