"Knicks win [last night's blowout of Cleveland] in most convincing, energetic fashion and mainstream sports media focus is on “fans” holding “Fire Isiah” signs. I agree with Jay Bee that the boobirds and “Fire Isiah” crowd are primarily the creation of the mainstream media tabloid hacks who despise both Zeke and Dolan for restricting their access to the team. In the interview following last night’s game, D. Lee said that he viewed the win against Cleveland as a commited team effort, reflecting high intensity and pure determination to prevail. Lee encouraged the fans to “stay positive” — something many of us who contribute to this blog have been saying for some time." – Knick Fan "Prince" on KnickDefenders Website
The above quote represents another Knick fan’s point of view that won’t be found in your local or national newspaper. It simply doesn’t fit the mass hysteria that has become the phenomena presently known as "Fire Isiah". And make no mistake, it is nothing short of mass hysteria. This has gone far beyond chanting fans at Knick games. Don’t believe me? New York tabloid journalists and pundits on Around the Horn have asked for David Stern to intervene on the Knicks coaching situation. ESPN, along with every other media outlet, reported yesterday’s mini-protest outside of Madison Square Garden demanding Isiah’s removal. There was a giant "Pink Slip" and everything. Not enough for you? Apparently, there is also a bigger civl rights issue at stake here as activist Norman Siegel says: "The Knicks are trampling on what New York is all about. We’re outspoken, and we’re zany at times, but principles and values of free speech should be adopted." Is Siegal referring to language in "The Patriot Act"? Nope. He is referring to a fan having his "Fire Isiah" sign removed at a game. I must have missed that constitutional clause that allowed for signs in private venues. Perhaps, if I don’t like my food at a restaurant tonite I can hold up a sign that says: "The Chef Sucks" and call Siegal if they violate my rights by taking it away. But I digress.
Mass protest? Commisioner Intervention? First ammendment rights? Wow, if our media covered our national policy with the same vigor, George Bush would have been impeached many years ago! So how did we get here? Surely there are many fans who want Isiah fired for legitimate reasons. I, myself, just wrote yesterday how much I have been truly dissappointed with Isiah’s coaching performance (not GM) . But there is certainly a difference between wanting your coach fired, and pretending that we’re marching back in Selma, Alabama. Despite pre-season expectations as conference-contenders, The Heat and The Bulls have had a similar start to the Knicks this year, but will get plenty of time to work the kinks out. So, is the Knicks reaction simply and purely the "will of the people"? Not quite. Here is an article from today’s New York Daily News:
"A slew of fed-up Knicks fans marched into Madison Square Garden on Wednesday night brandishing "FIRE ISIAH!" signs from the Daily News. Although the Knicks managed to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers 108-90, the victory clearly didn’t change many minds about wanting coach Isiah Thomas to go. …’You guys at The [Daily] News motivated us to come here and let the owners know what we think,’ said hotel concierge David Sergi, 22, of Holbrook, L.I. …The News printed the [Fire Isiah] poster as a holiday gift to frustrated Knicks fans after fellow devotee Jason Silverstein was tossed from Monday night’s loss to the Pacers when he held up his own makeshift sign."
The "Fire Isiah" posters came with The New York Daily News instructions to bring them to the next Knicks blowout loss. This wasn’t the first time that The Daily News has been offering "motivation". Along with their partners-in-crime at "The New York Post" they have been the "fire Isiah" ring leaders for the last four years. The back page headlines are atrocious, they regularly speak for and INSTRUCT the fans, and they rarely if ever offer a dissenting point of view in any of their articles. (For example, perhaps some fans might not take to the streets if the media ever informed them that when compared to other teams in NBA history the December 2003 roster that Thomas inherited is AT MINIMUM a 5-year turnaround project.). And even worse, as the opening quote alluded to, there have been continual claims that the tabloids are also out for revenge because they are unhappy with The Knicks and James Dolan’s media policy. Surely many fans in Chicago have expressed that they want Scott Skiles dismissed, but their local newspapers might be less apt to have a back page [NY Post] that says: "This Turkey’s Gotta Go" to celebrate goodwill, peace, and harmony over the Thanksgiving holdays.
And before we get all nostalgic about the Knicks of yesteryear let’s remember that this is the same local media that ran true warrior Patrick Ewing out of town and wrote the headline "Good Riddance" [NY Post] on the day that he was traded. This is the same media that had fans believing that Ewing was more of a detriment than an asset to the Knicks in the late ’90s. And this is the same media that convinced fans that two years ago AROD was having a terrible year despite batting .290 with 35 Hrs and 121 RBIs. So, is the media responsible for a Knick fan wanting Isiah to be fired. Of course not. Isiah will have to take some responsibility for helping the Knicks lose those games. However, only the media can take responsibility for helping Knick fans lose their minds.
FIRE ISIAH! DUMP DOLAN PROTEST & WALKOUT
CLOTHING DRIVE TO BENEFIT NYC’S HOMELESS SHELTERS
SUNDAY DECEMBER 30, 2007 AT 11:00 am
IN FRONT OF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN
PROTEST = Stand with us outside the Garden, Be Heard.
WALKOUT = We are encouraging all fans that attend the game against the Bulls to make a statement by leaving the Garden at the end of the 3rd quarter and join us in our protest.
BENEFIT = Donate a clothing item to NYC’s homeless shelters for those less fortunate.
Due to disgrutled fan demand the protest has taken a little twist. We have decided to add James Dolan, Owner of The New York Knicks to the cause. Although Isiah is directly responsible for the debacle taken place with OUR team for the past 4 years, James Dolan is just as responsible overall. Furthermore, it’s James Dolans arrogance and and ignor-ance to do NOTHING to help this team and the changes that NEED to be made. It seems that everyone knows there is a problem besides him. The state of this team has reached a new low.
Why should we have to suffer for the doings of amateur, inexperienced, immature and uneducated ownership and management. All the while being blatantly conceited and arrogant about it!
The time has come to stand and unite. Power in numbers!
This also happens to be the day the Knicks have a home game against the Bulls which will most likely end up being another pitiful Knick lost. An ironic punctuation to an already pathetic season.
Although this protest has been initiated virally via blogs, podcasts, webcasts, various media outlets and personalities have already expressed interest and support for this protest. Their identity will come on the days prior to and the day of the protest.
So when you’re sitting there on a dark, cold winter night, this year, next year or whenever and OUR Knicks are losing another game (hopefully not by more than 20 points again), remember that someone organized a forum for you to voice your opinion. Be able to say to yourself, “I did all that I could†and be at peace with yourself instead of never doing anything. Accept mediocracy and that is what you’ll get. I never claimed that this would solve all of the Knicks problems but to do or say nothing is the real crime.
Don’t let the nay Sayers be right when they say, “Knick Fans aren’t passionate enough about OUR team and will never come together and voice their opinions. They don’t care that much about their team†I say “They are ALL wrong!
Driving by or waiting to see coverage via newspaper, web or television will not do. In order to make our point, attendance by all disgusted Knick fans is needed. Please support the efforts and message of this protest.
We’re not pompous or foolish to believe this protest will be the fix to end all problems with our NY Knicks. As die-hard fans that have suffered tremendous anguish watching this ownership and management dismantle and ruin this proud franchise and everything it stands for, our Knicks. The laughing stock of the NBA. WE MUST BE HEARD!
Please show your support Sunday, December 30, 2007 in front of MSG “The Worlds Most Famous Arena†with the “Most Pathetic Basketball Organization!â€
I can be reached via email at joeyvworks@yahoo.com. Also respond if you are interested in receiving the daily protest email update.
Joeyvworks,
Where’s Jimmy Hoffa?
Joey, I simply cannot tell you how wrongheaded this protest is. After being his #1 defender in the past, just as you do, I personally believe that Isiah should step down as coach. I’m sure we differ on how bad a GM he is, but that is not important here.
But protest? Any more protests are simply a WIN for our vicious NY tabloids. Dolan-Isiah may be responsible for this year’s losses, but they are not the ones that created this hysteria that would take place no where else on earth. They create it, then cover the protest they create, and then reward people for the 15 minutes of fame. Now it snowballs. Protests only serve to validate the media’s hate.
This media are the same people who long for the glory days of the Patrick Ewing era, but treated him like crap and told him “Good Riddance†[NY Post Headline] on the day he was traded. Long after the Isiah era is over these people will still be here. And that is a much much bigger problem — one that you should consider. To have this focused on Isiah/Dolan – even if you, like me, believe he should be fired – is extremely short-sighted. There is a much bigger picture here, and no disgruntled Knicks fan should accept being manipulated as sheep.
I won’t question your sincerity as a diehard fan, and certainly understand the passion of those who want to protest. However, it is seriously misplaced. Personally, I want the Knicks to win as much as anybody else on this planet. I would ask the following question of any wanna-be Knick protester? Have you stood up to protest the war in Iraq? (assuming that you are against it) Have you protested against the Jena 6? Did you attend a “Save Darfur†rally? A protest against media accountability? Any other truly meaningful cause?. If the answer is a consistent NO, then that fact needs to be seriously thought through.
All,
Ownership:
Every Owner’s (in any business) objective is not always to service the customer,or even to satisfy the customer! Many owners are in the business for the Money/PROFITS only!!
Every owner will not be a proud owner(Stienbrenner),stand by his product,if there is a servere problem w/ the goods or services: It is their job to correct the needful, insuring 100% satisfaction. If profit margins and BUSINESS are not effected ,the Cold and Selfish owner will undoubtly continue with his narrative, selling damaged goods or in this case:Something the customer can be without
-The product:
Whether it is a basketball ticket or a newspaper: the goal is to sell as many as possible(for most.., that comes at any cost)
In this scenrio: We are that cost. Our minds and emotions are being manipulated,causing us to fall for the same ol’ tricks. They create the problems, cause khaos, and provide the solution.
If you are not satisfied with the product,we dont buy it. Unfortunately..we are not just customers/fans, we are addicts!! And this franchise is and has been our addiction… for years ^And the Dolon family knows this^ When you are an addict you find everyway possible to justify your abuse.
The Customer/Fan:
Our voices have been heard by the world all ready…Isiah cant go any where w/out being reminded on what a great job he is doing. Do not waste anymore time,energy,or money protesting this management group.
-Why on earth would I go to the game for 3qts. Leave. go outside the arena and bash the owner and it management.
-That’s like going inside a Baltimore crack house!,smoke some of the crack!,demand all the feens walk out… in front of the crackhouse, and begin bad mouthing the Kingpin and his Lieutenant.-
We as consumers have all the power. NO BUSINESS can stand without its customers. You can rant and rave all you want about service..but that is null & void when you put 1 dollar in that druglords(owners) pocket.
So if you believe there is strength in numbers,The only number that matter is fan attendance. Until we gain control of our addiction , we are just as filthy as the man sell the STUFF.
It is time to get our priorities in order.
While this team may be our livelyhood…
Its Management will be our death.
Modi: You stated : “HOWEVER, it has hit a point of mass hysteria that surpasses anything that I have ever seen. And that hysteria is fueled by the media more than anything. Having a different view on Isiah is like trying to be Saddam Husseins lawyer. You just won’t make it to trial. Now THAT is because of the crazy media.”
You’re right, it has hit a point of mass hysteria to a point that anyone us have seen. Have you asked yourself why this is? The answer is quite simple, it’s terrible. I’m not attacking you but more less trying to say that I agree with you and IT IS bad. Desperate times call for desperate measures. To be quite frank with you and anyone that thinks that there are better things to do or that this is about 15 minutes of fame, all I can say is I respect your opinion. You’re entitled to it just like it is that any Knick fan that joins us on Sunday. We are all entitled to our opinions. Let’s all please remember that everyone on this thread defends thier right to express themselves. Don’t use the gun that you protect yourself with and point it at yourself.
With regards to what a protest will or will not do and what the answer really is. I couldn’t agree with anyone more when they say to stop giving the “Kinkpin” the money. Hit him in the wallet. This is easier said than done. It has to get worse unfortunately. I personally don’t want it to get to that point. I’m not so sure I can stomach much more of this disgrace. Here is what I do know, Isiah is responsible for this mess w/ Dolan standing behind him. We can all argue what he inherited problems blah, blah, blah. Have we forgoteen that he’s been making these decisions for the past 4 years + 1 day? I have said over and over, in the real world, when you don’t meet expectations or perform the ressponsibilities as they pertain to your title and function, you’re fired. Plain and simple.
We’re not looking to solve all the problems in 1 day but the process needs to start somewhere and this is where we have decided to start and that is our OPINION.
I’m going to watch to see if MY Knicks can managed to pull a win and not embarrass themselves again. Unfortunately I don’t have too much faith in a positive outvome. My calculations come up with I have a 1 & 3 chance of MY Knicks winning a game everythime they play. Anyone have a pair of dice? This sucks!
One more thing. I totally forgot one last point I wanted to make in the last post.
Let’s all not forget that this is a coach that is quoted as saying that he “thinks this team is heading in the right direction”
Ok. Now I’m done.
Joe V.
Ehus, i found myself surprisingly amused at your post — not in a bad way… just amused at the train of thought.
– je V, thanks for the commentary, and yes we have different opinions. You say: “have you asked yourself why that is?” (about the mass hysteria)
Yes, i have asked myself that question many times and the answer is “the media”. i am fully convinced if the media was less hateful, the people wouldn’t be taking to the streets. Fron 1999 – 2005 the Bulls averaged 19 wins. Why didn’t people take to the streets? Where has the Kevin mcHale mob been? Elgin Baylor has presided over the Clippers for 100 years. Did I miss the March? Did we march during the Jets Rich Kotite era? The Giants, Mets, and Knicks in the late ’70s early ’80s? Of course not. We have been hit over the head every day by epople who PERSONALLY hate Isiah’s guts. It is personal. The papers hate the Knicks for their media access policy amongst other things. It is not just performance. If it was just performance, there would be many other precedents for it. This point may be lost on you as you validate their hate.
Listen, I am dissappointed as anyone because I thought that they would go to the playoffs this year, BUT have you ever read even ONE SINGLE MAINSTREAM ARTICLE that compares the contents of the Dec. 2003 roster to other similarly terrible rosters in NBA history (when looked back at 4 years later). Have you? If you did, readers could be informed that there is virtually no historical precedence of a 4 year turn around of such a roster. (except with a lucky #1 pick like Kareem to Bucks). Do you think that such information might be useful to fans before they reach for the picket signs? Would information about the relative meaninglessness of the salary cap be useful?
Now I’m not saying that this might change your opinion on whether you think he should be fired, but it would certainly temper peoples outrage to know that Red Auerbach would have needed at least 4 years to turn that old roster into young guys.
Stephon Marbury has a good right to be depressed. Who wouldn’t be depressed playing with bums like Eddy Curry, MisQ-Rich, and Jamal Crawford butchering every pass he makes to them? And then his coach has him in a SUBSERVIENT role on this team! Does Baron Davis play 3rd fiddle on his team? Someone remind me when this group of players won 50 games that Marbury has to be the 3rd or 4th offensive option? It’s insanity.
The problem this team is suffering from is Isiah Thomas and his devotion to Curry and Crawford. He has to give Crawford and Curry big roles because Crawford replaced Allan Houston and Eddy Curry was supposed to make us forget that we lost Ewing years ago. He made huge moves to get these two and they have NOT IMPROVED since they donned Knick jerseys. For some reason fans want to blame Marbury. It’s pathetic and rolls right in with the media madness that this site talks about.
Let’s look at Marbury’s team in Minny. All he did was take them to the playoffs. They got bumped in the first round each season. What the media doesn’t tell anyone is the Wovles didn’t get out of the 1st rd for years AFTER Marbury left. KG needed Spree and Cassell before he FINALLY got out of the first rd. And Marbury wanted out of Minny because he wanted to play here in NY. Minny didn’t want anything the Knicks had so they moved him to NJ and Marbury agreed to come over. Stop spreading lies about Marbury hating KG because he wanted more money than him. The NBA has a cap! In Phoenix, Marbury took a rookie in Amare and went to the playoffs. When they traded Marbury, the Suns went into the toilet, while Marbury took the Knicks 2003-2004 squad to the playoffs. Once again, he got bumped in the 1st rd, but that’s because he didn’t have a decent enough team. Speaking of decent enough teams, don’t talk about the Nets. Kidd got RJ, K-Mart (healthy), Kittles (healthy) and Collins, where Marbury didn’t have ANY of the above, instead playing with the likes of Sherman Douglas, Kendall Gill and Johnny Newman to name a few.
Jimmy, I have never agreed with the whole: “Marbury has lost every place he has gone mantra” and echo many of your dsentiments in post #26.
I do believe that Thomas has misused the talent of Marbury by wasting his game on too many dump in passes. I’d like to see Crawfoed come off the bench.
Right now, i’m trying to stay positive and hope marbury comes back next game with renewed vigor.
You should also know that he is my favorite athlete in all of sports largely based on his off-the-court contributions…
MODI- Marbury has been terribly misused on this team and treated even worse by this new breed of moronic Knick fan. The bias of these current stupid Knick fans is disgusting. The media sends them wrong messages and they run with it. Sometimes I wonder how much of this beef is racially motivated between Zeke, Stephon and the fans since the departure of Larry Brown. It’s absolute insanity how Knick fans are behaving lately. I have been following the team since 1979 and this abysmal fan behavior has reached beyond toxic levels. I’m beyond fed up. If these so called fans don’t want to see this Knick team perform, just give up your season tickets and leave. Go root for the Nets when they get to Brooklyn is my opinion. Get fans in there who will support the team when they are down.
I hope Stephon doesn’t quit. Someone who does as much good as he does shouldn’t be treated this way.
MODI -
All I can say about the media is that they report what they want to. Not in a totalitorian manner but what is news. I think you will agree that the pitifulness of the Knicks is news right now. Once again, can any of us really disagree with the fact that this team has had a losing record for too long now? Or that there is tremendous mis-management?
One other note that can not go without being mentioned. The Knicks organization is thier own worst enemy. They had a hand in creating the hostility with the media and now the media is returning the favor and ripping them anyway and anytime they can. I do not feel sorry for all of the bad publicity. It only highlights the obvious. Would you complain if the media didn’t mention a single thing about the state of this team? Like no one was noticing that this team has been a mess for too long. Think about it… My question to you, because you are so anti-media, when is it the right time to report a negative activity? Not Darfur or Aids or those types of things but sports. The stuff that sports writers write about. Is there ever a right time for a sports writer to critisize a player, team, coach, GM, Owner or organization? I would have to say that this is an appropriate time. I would also tell you that I would have to think that the media is tired of replaying the same old crap over and over in the papers. I’m sure they would love to change this skipping record.
As for what other fans have or not have done in the past with thier team having a consistency for losing, I’m not really all that concerned about them. Does that mean because there wasn’t a revolt that revols/protests will never happen? Today is a new day with the accesiblity to coordinate and organize this type of protest from a grass roots strategy with the Internet. One other thing more importantly, we are NY Fans. The most passionate fans on this planet. Not me believing this but the fact that we have been told this in the past. It’s something we should be proud of. Having a losing historic franchise is not something we would as passionate fans take lightly. We will not.
Lastly, this is not about a 4 year turnaround. This is about the fact that were nowhere near turning around. Hell, we can’t even find the right formula with regards to an effective let alone starting roster. We’re so @#$ backwards that our 2nd team embarrasses our starting team. Sounds to me like we have moved backwards before we’ve moved forward. Sounds to me like we have given all the time needed to move forward. Please also remember that we have a coach who now says that changes need to be made and the follwoing day says he thinks we’re heading in the right direction. Which direction is that because it sure isn’t North and doesn’t even resemble drifting East or West but sure does look a whole lot like going South. I will say this once again, because this is what it is really all about. He was hired to do a job, he hasn’t come close to fulfilling his obligations. In my world, don’t perform, don’t have a job. PERIOD.
Jimmy, I cosign your #60 post 100%!
Joe V, please don’t mistake my position. I am not anti-media. I am pro-media accountability. The NYTimes Knick beat writer Howard Beck is an excellent journalist. New York Newsday’s Alan Hahn has also done some good work. They report negative activity ALL THE TIME! It is quite possible to REPORT about the Knicks woes WITHOUT hate, vitriol, and a personal agenda because you hate James Dolan’s media policy and want to get back at him.
I really hope that you have done your homework about the Knicks vs. media homework, but this article is a good place to start: http://www.observer.com/2007/life-knicks-hell The Daily News HATES Dolan and Isiah. HATES them. It is personal. No newspaper, no matter how trashy, is supposed to print “Fire isiah” posters. I mean, the Daily News named Anucha Browne Sanders the NY Sportsperson of the year! …when will you get what is going on… You and your fellow protesters are merely pawns in a game that the media has created…
This is far bigger than “passionate NY fans”. The reason that nobody is picketing outside of the meadowlands is because the media is not asking them to, and is not writing hateful articles about Eric mangini every day of the week. The Jets were a PLAYOFF team last year, increased their talent in the off-season and are now one of the worst teams in football. In contrast the KNICKS WEREN’T picked by most experts to make the playoffs. Please don’t tell me about the passion of NY fans. This is a media creation and the public are the sheep.
I agree that Isiah has been a horrible coach, and have advocated he stepped down myself if the line-up changes do not result in sudden progress. But this is about protesting. And if like you say, “in my world, don’t perform, don’t have a job. PERIOD.” then I want to see you and all of your protesting fans outside of the Meadowlands calling for Mangini’s head as well. Tell me where to sign up!
Finally, despite the disagreement. I admire your passion as a fan and wish you and your family a happy holiday season.
Modi/
Thanks for the heads up(regarding paragraphs).I also appreciate you making the folks aware…They have been programmed(brain washed)!! Via newspaper, radio , and TV personalities.
Unfortunately most of the general public is totally oblivious to how their views and thought patterns have been persuaded by sources other than their own mind’s.Critical Thinking, of course is neccesary…But it is even more difficult to admit to someone that you have been manipulated, controlled and activated to “hate!”
Joey made a great point- reminding us ,that desperate times call for desparate measures,& that it has to get worse before it gets better. (Joey says unfortunately….I say fortunately, because it comes at the cost of the owner being exposed for the man really is.*Every self confessed addict must see their bottom,and feel compelled to actually change) While that is not always the best way to get specific results,It does bring about a greater respect for fans and their inciteful political positions.
I realize that the optimistic- wealthy fan ,who has not uncovered the underlying reason(s) for this frachise’s state ,will continuously show up @ the Garden… aspiring to be entertained(regardless the outcome),and unaware of the true symbolism of their attendance at this time.
So, They show up (programmed) believing that BOO’s and Chants will CO-erse this team and its Coach to play better…,Not willing to sacrifice the vested dollars that James Dolon will use to get his Grey Goose and not on a franchise player that will help nurse disgusting hang-over back to sobriety.
While I never believed protesting any administration gets you to the mountain top… ,I do know exposing their agenda will put wouldbe supporters in a better position to render a verdict.
How fast would James Dolon & Family reconsider their position if only 6500 fans showed up on game nights.
Ethus & Modi -
Just a quick couple of points here. I’m glad that we agree on some points and also seem to agree that it’s ok to disagree with each other as well.
Modi – I’m not protesting infront of the Meadowlands because of Manginis performance because I do not care about the Jets. This is also not about the Jets, it’s about the Knicks. With regards to the media, the bad Knick press is a product of thier creation more than anything else as for as I’m concerned. The Dolan way of doing business which is ‘Fuck you, if you don’t like it, too bad! We will do what we want, when we want and how we want!” Is the core of the treatment they get from anyone that gives them a reason to. I do not feel bad that The Dolans are a walking target.
I am not a sheep. Whether the media supported this or not, I would still do what I have been doing for the past couple of weeks coordinating Sunday. I am my own person, and don’t need the media to confirm that organizing and coming together as one is effective or not.
Another thing I noticed in your last paragraph is that you said, “I agree that Isiah has been a horrible coach, and have advocated he stepped down myself if the line-up changes do not result in sudden progress.”. Modi – This is the END!. Do you really think that the 56th line up change of the 1st 1/4 of the season is going to have any significant results. The players are a small part of the problem. The core of the problem is the coach with the owner right behind him. Case and Point, any High School Coach would have drawn up a better plan then the plan set forth at the end of the Lakers game. It was pure immaturity and lack of experience the the scoreboard read the Knicks lost.
Ethus – I couldn’t agree with you more that the best way to get someones attention and force change is to “hit’em in the pocket”. I can only do soo much but it’s a start. It sure as hell is better than realying on the media to do our dirty work for us. If you are a fan, passionate about this club and long for yesteryear, then show up. If not, then stay home and do nothing.
Ethus, the last sentence was a general statement to all Knick fans and not directed towards you specifically.
Joey,
No harm, no foul! However, I am passionate about my Knicks. I will not attend Sunday’s Game,and then leave(3rd qt.). Primarily because of the ‘more harm than good’ scenerio. If there was a way to get the fans to not enter the arena at all…you would have my unwavering support (100%). In essense i will be there to support the clothing portion of the cause!
If in the process.. if I find that this event is ‘properly mediated’ and its intent is clearly percieved as such, I will forfeit my stance and demand a’CHANGE’.
Best Wishes
Joe v,
“Do you really think that the 56th line up change of the 1st 1/4 of the season is going to have any significant results.”
56th line-up change? Unless marbury has been on family leave there has not been one single starting line-up change all season. The Knicks were never going to win starting 5 scorers playing no defense and I have been screaming at my TV set since the 2nd week for a change. They have been getting killed in the 1st quarter all season with much better results in the 2nd unit. Now I’m not expecting miracles but I KNOW that this team is far more talented than it’s record. I would simply like to see it for once.
Note: Last year after the Denver fight and before the injuries hit that same week in March they were playing exciting .500 basketball. Personally, I want the opportunity to see that team. Whether under Isiah or someone else.
The young talent exists on this team. Joey, as I said to Ehus, I would take the current Knicks roster over a better performing team like the Indiana Pacers anyday of the week. That team might make the playoffs, get bounced, and have no future because they have no budding talent and no upside (besides Granger). I want to see some of out young talent play…
Not that I expect david Lee to contain Dwight Howard or anything crazy like that…
Modi,
First qrt..I like the energy and concentration.
What is going to happen w/ Steph?
With no sign of a happy reunion,should we expect a trade?
I have asked myself, what franchise(currently)can he utilize to maximize his
ability and win a championship immediately?
Let’s just say he goes!-
What name, on the NBA’s list of players make NY a seven game FINALS’ appearance away from glory?
I just want everyone to know that I have truly enjoyed myself on this blog. You have really pressured me to pressure myself to think about my answers and at the end of the day, I can say I feel deep down inside as I have expressed myself. DAMN do I hate this coach and organization!
Joe V.
Ehus, I also liked the 1st quarter energy! The starting line-up change certainly seemed to work. The awfule substitution patterns are another story.
I have no idea about Marbury, but I would love to see him get the opportunity to run this offense with the new starting lineup. assuming that is possible…
Anyway, I do think that Artest will be a Knick by next year. He wants to come to NY. We could definitely use his defense and he could be had cheap…
Joe V, since you are dead set on this misguided protest thing, could you at least do me a favor and have a couple of your people hold signs up that say: FREE RENALDO BALKMAN! FREE RENALDO BALKMAN! FREE RENALDO BALKMAN!
Maybe we will? Any one else you want to free? It’s your perogative
Nope! But I do want to lock-up Q until he gets his shot back! He has not recovered from injuries and it is clear as day!
Joe, I am telling you that this team has the talent to win if coached correctly.
BTW, I firmly believe that the Knicks will bust the Bulls ass on Sunday. Then it will be 2 for 2 on protest days… in which event I will request that you show up to every home game…
The Knicks should follow the model of the Portland Trailblazers. Formerly the ‘Jailblazers’ from 2002-2006, they cleaned house, retooled management, loaded up on and developed young talent, got lucky (Oden), made nice personnel moves (drafting Roy, picking up Knick Channing Frye, among others). They are deep and loaded for the future. The problem here is Knicks ownership has no clue (see: Dolan hubris). The Knicks need solid new ownership with vision (and sexual-harassment-free work environment), all new management, and a Roy-esque player to lead them into a new era. The odds of this happening are so slim its frightening. What is a realisitic timeline here? I mean, SO many things have to happen (don’t they?) for the Knicks to become a world-class (even competitive)organization again. Modi, you have written so eloquently about the Knicks and the upcoming season > I too thought the Knicks had playoff potential. It’s just sad. Remember when Steinbrenner was banned from the Yankee clubhouse/decision-making for a while because of Winfield tampering, etc. The resulting, enforced hands-off approach led the Yankees to develop young talent and management AND a dynasty. Isn’t Stern in a similar position to do the same to the Dolans? I mean, they just lost a huge sexual-harassment case, Stern did nothing. In the meantime he penalizes players for dress code violations and for barely stepping onto the floor during altercations (see: Stoudamire). But, I digress. The Daily News should be making signs that say, “Fire Stern” and “Fire the Dolans.” Not that I am saying anything new.
The Knicks should follow the model of “Do what it takes to WIN with HEART and GUTS!
Merry Christmas
Call it a sneak preview:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hOZjr4gSfFU
What this is all about!
Love Ya,
Joe V.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bqgWmx-VaBA
Wex, I know how popular it is to say now, “they should do like the Trailblazers now”. Yes, the trailblazer are hot as hell, and when Oden arrives they will be perennial contenders. Also, Portland also has the very same ownership that it had that created the “jail blazers” in the first place. So is what you are saying “wrong”. No, but it has a lot of “hindsight 20/20″ and jumping on the bandwagon to it. The Charlotte Bobcats have basically had the exact same strategy as Portland the last couple of years but just didn’t get lucky with a #1 pick and didn’t draft as well. Atlanta has also had the same exact strategy for the LAST 10 YEARS but has drafted poorly and is only NOW seeing success. Luck and good drafting play a great role here. About one year ago no one was talking about the Trailblazers, what people WERE saying is the the Chicago Bulls were “the model franchise” about how to rebuild http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/chris_mannix/09/20/mannix/index.html
“Isn’t Stern in a similar position to do the same to the Dolans? I mean, they just lost a huge sexual-harassment case, Stern did nothing. In the meantime he penalizes players for dress code violations and for barely stepping onto the floor during altercations (see: Stoudamire).”
Wex, we really have to separate off-court with on court. Either Stern should intervene because of sex harassment case or he should not. Period. But that fact is completely independent of wins-losses. If the Knicks were 20-3 like the Celtics, do you make that same statement? The precedence of commissioner intervention because of wins and losses is a very dangerous one that extends far beyond the NY Knicks. Then what’s next? Does he force Kevin McHale’s ouster for wasting Garnett’s talent all those years?
But of course, the truth is that The New York Daily News shouldn’t be making any signs that say anything…
But more importantly, thanks both Wex and Joe. V for the “Carry on Tradition” and “Bernard Videos”. Definitely needed during these hard times.
MODI:
Can you help me to understand something…
I personally thinks Marbooty sucks ass- but that’s beside the point. I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that the unifying theme in requests to Marbaby from Wilkens, Brown and Thomas has been to actually lead the offense by creating better scoring opportunities for his teammates while passing up his own offense until such time as was needed.
Now, from where I’m sitting, none of that would preclude Mr. Marbury from putting up truly stellar numbers. Consider this: if Steph passed for the first 3/4 of every quarter – taking only the occasional full court foray or fast-break opportunity, and last second buzzer beaters after running the offense, he could average 15-18 points without running a single set play. I’m assuming he’d get 2-3 shots per quarter. (If he sat extensively he might only get 1 shot (as in the transition time between the end of the 1st and middle of the 2nd quarter)).
If at the end of quarters, he sought to take over, dominate the ball, enter the lane and maximize free throw oppts., he could probably average another 5 to 10 points per game. I’m assuming he’d get 2-3 shots per quarter – and the offense might be run through him – depending on the opponent and their defensive strategy.
In any event, he’d have the overwhelming majority of his minutes focused on passing the ball – especially his early minutes in quarters. That would energize the big guys and encourage them to run the floor. The last two-three minutes would allow him to focus his superior scoring abilities on attacking the heart and soul of the defense.
As I say, I don’t know that that has been the goal – but a guy with his skill set should be able to average about 22 and 12 in his sleep operating under this approach. It seems to me that the Knicks would be better off if Marbury’s approach was restructured this way. There should be enough shots for everyone – except Q.
—
BTW,
Aren’t you glad that I PRESSED you about a starting lineup – AND aren’t you glad that Isiah reads your blog!!!!
modi,
I thought the game was lost when…
Curry and Malik Rose came out in the 4th. Regardless of what Starting line-up -Starts the game…The coach does not have a particularly good feel for anticapating sequence(s) of events. Which in my opinion leads to what we are seeing (poor management of games and untimely subs),lack of cohesiveness. I rarely ever see Coach Thomas making teams adjust to the players he has on the floor,or force teams to do something other than run their offense. Its like- there is no element of surprise by him at all. Example: trapping defense with the lead(8 points or more), full court man to man defense w/ nate picking up his man full court- causing teams to break into their offensive sets late!!)
Essentially what I see is predictable situations,stemming from his inability to read his/team’s as well as opposing teams body language.
Temple, I won’t go into “the merits of Marbury” as I think “jimmy” has done a pretty good job here and in the “Line-up change 10 point plan”.
In any case, Marbury is one of those guys who has a fine line between agression and passiveness on the court. The more that he brings the ball up the floor, the more assertive he is. In a perfect world, i wish that this wasn’t the case, however, whenever marbury has been at his best he has felt a certain brunt of responsibility to do some scoring. Personally, i believe that Thomas has misutilized him in having Crawford bring the ball up the court as many times as he does. Personally I would have Marbury bring it up every time as it helps him get into the flow, helps him make plays for others (he DID average 8 assists for many years), and helps him get to the line. Brown alienated Marbury immediately by killed him in the press when conversations should have been private. I thought that out of the 3 coaches you mentioned, Lenny used Marbury the best, let him be agressive and used pick and rolls, pick and pops (he even made Mike Doleac look good!). Since Minnesota, marbury has not had a decent supporting cast in his entire career — until THIS YEAR. Of course, the shit hit the fan with the game 5 benching and all of Marbury family and mentors dying on him. There are also questions if Marbury even cares about basketball that much anymore. he has done such incredible things off-the-court that his life obviously doesn’t revolve around his game.
BTW, isiah only read HALF of my blog post… he obviously didn’t sit your boy Q’s ass down!
Ehus, i agree with your assessment. the only thing that is so puzzling is that i thought that he did a pretty decent job coaching last year. he also did a decent job in Indiana. Sometimes his moves are so inexplicable that he seems like he WANTS to get fired!
You raise some solid points.
Hey Gang,
Thought you would find this funny. Modi – I didn’t come up with this for the media, I swear. (You won’t believe me anyway so oh well)
I had a guy email me today to tell me that he is coming on Sunday and he was going to burn his tickets for the game on Sunday in front of the media. Maybe he’s looking for some press, but isn’t this what everyone has been talking about? The only problem is that the Dolans already got his money and now he is pissing it away. The other side of it is, the tickets are only worth starting a fire with.
Sweet irony I guess?
Joe v.
TEMPLE- Marbury/Marbaby sucks ass? You can’t be over 21 years old. Older Knick fans remember the days of Edmund Sherrod, Gerald Henderson, and Tony White. All which would have made Howard Eisley look like God!
I have a prevailing theory about the modern day under 25 years of age Knick fans. They only remember the good days. Before the 1990′s, there weren’t any days of suffering until the playoffs rolled in. The Knicks were always competitive and they made us proud. Those of us from the 80′s remember a totally different era.
Jimmy,
I read your point about the NYK of yesteryears. One major problem with sports fanaticism today is the roles played by the MSM. All of a sudden, the “most knowledgeable fan” can break down a game by repeating what s/he read from some no-athletic hack who was not even allowed to bring water and warmed towels for the team, IN HIGH SCHOOL.
Not defending Temple3 here because I, too, am always reticent to talk about the ability of professional athletes. First off, I never made to that level. Plus, what does it get me to disparage someone else? Still, Temple3 may be right in his comment if you put the testimony from the ABS mess in play. The consensual sex act performed in that truck may have included the verb and noun he typed here. Beyond that, we know that Marbury is married. While he’s not grieving, one can safely assume that he’s doing some of that verb and noun to his Ho-ther half like all good- knowing and God-fearing married men.
You know what’s good. I would disconnect, however, if he was talking about the athletic act and God-given talent that Marbury has been honing since he was 3 years old.
Steady, too much code for me to keep up! I know that I could get it all if I really put my mind to it, but it;s late and I’n tired!
Joe, that guy who is will burn tickets is EXACTLY what I’m talking about when i say media-fueled. He wants his 15 minutes like the jersey tosser and Jason Silverstein. Tell him to give his tickets to me or to some kid who never had the opportunity to see a live basketball game before. seriously.
Hi Modi,
If you adjust the time stamp on the blog, you won’t be so tired when you respond. You will have at least 1 hour of rest.
I wanted to chime in on this debate. The media is the one that is treated like garbage by Jim Dolan and MSG. Just read the NY Observer Article from earlier in the month called Life In Knicks Hell and you will see what I mean.
I agree with those that blame Dolan, his management heirarchy has lacked vision. One former employee called him myopic which is appropriate for the Knicks situation.
Although Isiah is a symptom of a larger problem his behavior is not an element of media. Ignoring the teams vote to bench Marbury is just poor management. Ignoring the importance of defense is incompetance. He knows he lost this team and he has no one to blame but himself. Isiah has never demonstrated solid leadership in any of his positions. He is just not built for management or coaching.
I am sorry anyone who blames the media for Isiah’s problems are the same people who blame society for issues instead of demanding people take accountability for themselves.
This does not dismiss Dolan, but by no means is the media at fault here. We can blame the media for a lot of things in this country, but there is no bias with Isiah.
Modi – I’m not going to tell him to do anything. It;s his perogative to do whatever the hell he wants with his tickets wherever he wants. Let me ask you this question. Forgive me for not knowing exactly where this took place. It slips my mind at this point but I remember and image of someoe in a southeast asian country (I believe) standing in front of an Army tank. I believe this made it into Time Magazines best images of the century type of thing. Can you tell me whether that person was standing in front of that tank becuase they were looking for 15 minutes of fame or because they were standing up for something they believed in. Now please, don’t go there and tell me that it was for a greater cause. It has much more to do with things on a basic level. Standing up for what they believe in. PERIOD.
Gotham Hoops Live, thanks for posting:
I have ceratainly read the NY Observer Life in Knicks Hell, and I believe that some of the “good” Knick beat writers like Howard Beck and Alan Hahn DO NOT let hard deli sandwiches on hard bread affect they way they write stories. Why? Because that is what professional writers do. If the Knicks have a strange media policy, it also might have something to do with how the vicious tabloids cover them. Long before James Dolan arrived the tabloids were writing things like “Good Riddance” on the day Patrick got traded. The Knicks tabloid certainly had a hand in CREATING the current Knicks policy if anything.
But your big mistake is creating the always destructive “either/or” scenario that either pins it all on Isiah or the media. Just because Isiah has coached the team poorly does not excuse the media — in particular the Daily News in this case. You don’t have to take a journalism 101 course to know that a newspaper, even a tabloid newspaper, should not be issuing “Fire Isiah” posters with fan instructions. This is basic stuff. It is quite possible for someone to support Isiah being fired as coach AND know that guys like Lupica, Lawrence, and Isola have been completely biased in how they cover the Knicks for a very long time. Both concepts can be simultaneously true. The Daily News selection of Anucha Browne sanders as NY Sportsperson of the year should surprise no one who knows what is really going on.
To say “by no means is the media at fault here” is basically an admission that there simply exist no lines that the media can’t cross. Anything goes, and it’s okay. Sorry but I don’t believe in media Wild Wild West, but media accountability.
“Now please, don’t go there and tell me that it was for a greater cause. It has much more to do with things on a basic level. Standing up for what they believe in. PERIOD.”
Sorry Joe, that is exactly what I will tell you. Yes, being inflammatory is a necessary part of activism. That point is a fact and I won’t refute that. Mr. ticket burner wants to get on camera like mr. jersey tosser and mr. Silverstein. James Dolan will make no change unless he wants to. Burning tickets won’t help, although not buying them might.
Joey,
I think this disgruntled fan would be doing something a bit extreme, However I can clearly translate/equate his behavior with that of a feen who has lost his fellow junkie buddie to an over dose…Now he wants to throw elicit parafilnalia all over the streets in front of the “kingpin”.
My advice,dont let that DOPE go to waste;that kid who has never been to a Knick’s game may just be better off in his drug free school zone.Lets hope for the best.
Jimmy -
If I could go back and be 21, they’d have to shut this city down. I’m almost double that and he still sucks – and has for sometime now. To be honest, I’ve never loved his game: not at Ga. Tech, not anywhere. He’s always been dynamic and electrifying – but I’ve never viewed him as a dominant lead guard.
Funny me – I place too much value on the quality of passes by lead guards. I am concerned about speed, timing, type and accuracy. In most respects, I view him to be a sub par passer. I have respect for what he does off the field. I’ve bumped into him a few times here and there. He’s a decent enough fellow. And, generally speaking, I’m not a hater by trade…so don’t think it’s about a predisposition to spew venom. It ain’t that.
I’d simply like to see him actually dominate the league like we were told he would when he was born – when he left elementary school – when he went to Lincoln – when he ripped it at Lincoln – when he flexed in the ACC – and when he stood on the podium on draft night. He has all the skills – but there is a missing ingredient – and when that missing ingredient is missing in someone who is supposed to be great, it means something.
When Bo Jackson gets injured, people talk about what could have been for decades. When some other Schmo has to call it a career, people say, “Pass the peas.” Stephon is supposed to be Starbury…this is New York – not Peoria or Minneapolis or even Atlanta. When I say that he sucks, it’s not about his talent or his capacity…it’s about his routine execution…his will to manifest his highly cultivated right to dominate.
And, sir, there is no question. When it comes down to it, when you get down to the nitty gritty of dominant point guards in this association, that dude sucks ass. It may be pretty, but it sho’ is the truf.
Put another way – and more succinctly…on a scale of 1 to 10, how do you believe he would rate his own career in terms of what has transpired and what was/is possible…without excuses or stories or any enabling subtext — just production and what he has been able to create on the 94?
With so many aspects of his game at the same level they were a decade ago, I can’t imagine an honest self-assessment much higher than a 6.
Temple, as you readily admit, you are judging Marbury vs. his “potential” based on his high school prowess and subsequent cross-over. I just don’t know how fair that is. I mean he averaged 20 and 8 his first 10 years. And besides Minnesota, not one of those teams until this year surrounded him with any talent to expect playoff victory.
Now I’m upset that marbury’s jumper hasn’t really improved over the years, but that is true for so many players… and that may very well be more rule than exception…
What if marbury was treated just like another highly-touted PG coming out of college, you know like Mike Bibby. Marbury’s #’s are better tahn Bibby’s (assists too). Bibby lost with the Grizzlies and hasn’t won a playoff series in the last three years. In between, he won with great players around him. players that marbury never had. My point is that maybe Marbury is just a better version of Mike Bibby… and what is so bad about that?
Modi:
I’m not sure what is wrong with judging him against his potential…put another way – against the projected performance arc of his youth. The gap between actual and predicted performance is sizeable. As for Bibby, well…
When Marbury came out of college, there was another highly touted point guard. It was a guy who was a little smaller than Bibby who went to Georgetown. I don’t want to compare those two players – do you? In all fairness, he’s had a better career than his predecessor on the altar of NY high school basketball hype: Kenny Anderson. Perhaps that’s the only player to whom he can be fairly compared – their career paths were eerily similar for many years.
I thought Stephon did an admirable job in Phoenix. I don’t believe he garnered sufficient praise for his efforts there. They were an injury and a lucky bounce or two from beating the Spurs and upsetting some apple carts in Vegas. With that said, Steph looks to be the same cat that left Tech…still a streaky, unreliable jump shooter…still a question mark at the free throw line (high 70′s is simply not good enough)…and he’s never rounded out his stat lines (or floor game) by adding rebounds or steals or much of anything else.
I’d have to go back and check the lineups for your “no talent” argument, but I would imagine there have been guys who played with less support and had more success.
Maybe “sucks ass” is too strong a term for “classic underachiever,” but given his recent tutelage from the gods of point guard play, I can’t help leaning toward the former and away from the latter. Then again, maybe Wilkens, Brown and Thomas were sending mixed messages and have only worsened the situation. It may be that Steph has a very solid explanation for all of this (like being extorted by the Russian mob for hockey players) and I’ll gladly retract my statements…until then, I’m stickin’.
TEMPLE- Expectations are one thing. Reality is quite another. If you’re car doesn’t have the gas to get 200 miles, you’re only going as far as the gas gets you. That’s what sports is about. His team isn’t good enough. It doesn’t rebound. It doesn’t defend. It doesn’t shoot it from the outside well enough. Those are the facts. Everything else is just salad dressing, my man. Where you think he doesn’t pass well enough, I will tell you he doesn’t have explosive big men who can finish around the hoop after he gets them the ball. When he has had them, he has gone to the playoffs. When you say he doesn’t pass the ball at the right time, I will tell you his perimeter shooters aren’t good enough to get the job done. When has Marbury been blessed with a zone busting shooter on the Knicks?
When Marbury was traded to us in 2004, he was one of the best point guards in the league. What Zeke has done to his game is downright criminal. We are deprived of seeing him dominate because Zeke has to justify the Curry and Crawford trades. You can’t get milk from a bull. You aren’t going to get dominance if he isn’t allowed to shoot the ball whenever he needs to. As long as Zeke is convinced that this team’s best interest rests in the hands of Curry and Crawford, we’re not going anywhere for a long time.
My prayers are that both Crawford and Curry opt out of their deals next year and we get ourselves better players in their respective positions. We can only hope these guys DO opt out, because it’s their option to do so and not the Knick option. God knows a cleaning house would occur if the Knicks had the outs in their possession.
T3, wasn’t Bibby the 2nd pick in the draft? Doesn’t that say something about his arc?
But you are right, fellow NYC prodigy Kenny Anderson is probably the best comparison…
“sucks ass”? yes, to stong. “Classic underachiever?” Well, I don’t know if this term is fair for ANYBODY who makes all-star teams… in his career… Kwame Brown? Now HE is a classic underachiever!
BTW, I’ve got an article in my head on Marbury that should show up sometime in the next couple of weeks that should answer some of your Q’s
If your*….I’m off this morning.
Michael Olawokandi – Sucks ass
Jason Williams — Classic Underachiever
Darko Milicic — Sucks ass
Keith Van Horn — Classic Underachiever
Nikoloz Tskitishvili — Sucks ass
Glenn Robinson — Classic underachiever
Stomile Swift — Sucks ass
Drew Gooden – Classic Underachiever
Do we really need to continue this exercise?
I’m sorry Jimmy…you’re wrong…
you know why?
Stephon wishes that his career went as well as Isiah’s. Isiah didn’t have it easy and was still able to put together a great playing career.
If every coach has had issues with Steph at one point or another, at some point, Steph has to step up and evaluate what it is that he’s doing wrong. Steph did that to some extent last year. He put the penchant for stat hording aside and played his best all-around season ever.
Now that he’s had to endure the season from hell -a public relations nightmare plus deaths in his inner circle of family- everyone’s put him in question.
I feel bad for him because the public criticism is at an all time high while his personal life is at an all time low…rumors are being spread…lies are being told…
but the fact remains that Steph is one player statistically and another realistically. Zeke has tried to give him the formula for great leadership and Steph doesn’t seem to want to stick his neck out for his coach.
Has there ever been a quote attributed to Steph (as a Knick) that made him out to be a man of responsibility?
I don’t know. But I don’t think so.
Just when I thought this was Steph’s team to lead…he stepped aside and let Curry have it.
By design?
Or by default?
I don’t know.
Modi – that’s hilarious.
Jimmy…I feel your passion. Keep it up – the Knicks need that right now.
“Has there ever been a quote attributed to Steph (as a Knick) that made him out to be a man of responsibility?”
BARF, yes it was this summer when he said “there are more important things than basketball”? …and in reference to his sneakers he said…”what we are basically trying to do here is Change the world”…
…but I think that you might have meant ON THE COURT…
– Note, I agree that Isiah has misutilized Marbury with the exception being the second half of last year