A few days ago I was dismayed at how the Jeremiah Wright tapes might affect Barack Obama’s candidacy. Today I am glad that it did. The tapes forced Obama away from running purely as "race neutral" candidate, and into making a pivotal campaign decision. 1) Adhere to the Politics 101 handbook and exile his pastor to Siberia after his condemnations; or B) Have the nerve to think that he can TEACH and LEAD America across the political third rail known as "race". Barack Obama has put his chips "all in" and chosen the latter. And he has banked his entire candidacy on the hope that American voters might actually be receptive to grow, learn, and (gasp) understand nuance. He’ll repeatedly condemn his Pastor’s words, but won’t disown him anymore than he will disown his own white grandmother who has been known to make him cringe. And he actually wants all Americans to understand that point. And he wants us to understand many other points about race in America that go politically untouched. Now THAT is audacity.
It is the same type of leadership that made him denounce a war at a moment in time when it was thought to be pure political suicide. Professor Obama may be playing with some serious fire in trying to turn America into his own classroom, — except for one thing: unlike any other candidate, he not only has the eloquence, but more importantly the intelligence to teach us all and still become president of the United States of America. Perhaps that statement is completely naive. Time will tell. His courage displayed today makes this Barack Obama’s finest campaign hour… or 38 minutes. Whether the American people can realize the pure essence of leadership while it sits right before its very eyes remains to be seen. But I guess that is what the audacity of hope is all about. Before clicking play, be sure to bring the kids.
UPDATE: I was watching commentator Jim Wallis on CNN this evening, and this man simply nailed it:
"This was an amazing day as we all watched it unfold we may look back on this as an historic day because before Barack Obama’s speech this was a test of HIM. After the speech it has now become a test of US. And I want to say very clearly, I think that every American should watch this speech and watch it with their children and ask if Barack Obama’s vision of a more perfect union is the one they want for their children. …This is an examination of us as a nation."
DMac:
Is there such a thing as negroid bone structure for the body? You mentioned wide hips. Is there anything else?
Are there any other types – for purposes of comparison and contrast – other than “negroid”?
Does that extend to length of bones – density of bones – curvature of bones – feet – ankles – toes – fingers – other appendages – musculature – etc., etc.?
In other words, is there such a thing as a “Negroid Foot.” Is there such a thing as a “Negroid Tibia” or “Negroid Breast” or “Negroid Phallus” or “Negroid Finger” or “Negroid Ear.”
There are alot of body parts here – so if you’re collection is restricted to lips, hips, hair and noses – we could get some clarity. Thanks.
Patiently yours, Temple3
Also – are persons with “negroid bone structure” and dark skin unique to “America”? (I assume you mean the United States of America – exclusive of its territorial possessions like the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico…because if persons from those places met your definition – they’d also be Black Americans – right?) Okay. I’ll wait.
I said Black Americans are Americans with Negroid Bone Structure and dark skin, key point being American. So that speaks for itself. I also said bone structure not bones, again that speaks for itself. This is a simple fact, there are bone structures and skull shapes that identify a person as a negroid or having negroid features, couple those features with dark skin color in the US you have a Black American. Can you deny this?
“Can you deny this?” I believe I can. But it’s still early. We’ll come back to the bones structure.
You also said “dark skin.” Could you provide examples of how dark is dark enough and how dark is not dark enough? Is there a line or “gray area” where your “Black American-ness” might come into question?
Use persons or links to images that we can all see what you’re referring to. Thanks.
No dark skin is sufficient enough, especially since it is coupled with negroid features.
Okay – let’s go back…
Is dark skin always coupled with “negroid” features? Can a person have dark skin and non-”negroid” features? If so, are they a “black American”? And vice versa.
And again – how dark is dark enough.
Examples please.
No dark skin is not always coupled with negroid features. A person can have dark skin and non-negroid features. A black American would be the one who had the dark skin with some negroid features. The degree of darkness can vary.
Wo, wo, wo! Hold on.
“A black American would be the one who had the dark skin with some negroid features.”
When you say some negroid features – which ones are you referring to? Can a “black American” be “the one with dark skin” and:
- small noses (you said “large noses”)
- straight hair (you said “tight curly hair”)
- etc., etc.
Are there some combinations which make you more “black American” than others?
Still waiting on those Negroid bone structure/Dark Skin images. Thanks.
or links…I don’t believe we can post images with comments.
MODI – this is some Intro Class.
To be black American, you would have to have some negroid features, if you had no negroid features, you would simply be a dark skinned Cacusoid or Mongoloid, these people are not recognized as black in the US.
Also it is not specific features, i.e. large nose means you are negroid, it is combination of those features, such as (speaking bones here) large nasal cavity with portruding facial features just as the mouth or the jaw.
The hair is not really relevent to the discussion of bones, but it is common to black Americans, that being said it is not essential to determing what is black or not.
“Nasal openings: Wider and flatter in Negroids. Narrow in Caucasians.
Femur: Tends to be straighter in Negroids.”
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/ident.pdf
“Black traits are generalized to include a broader, more rounded nasal cavity; lower facial (prognathism); and a dolichocephalic skull (proportionally longer from front to back).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniofacial_anthropometry
Excuse me for butting in but somewhere around post 45 I got lost. Isn’t race as a biological/anatomical construct completely irrelevant. Isn’t the issue how people have been treated (and continue to be treated based) on insignificant details such skin tone and hair texture, and thieir “craniofacial anthropometry”. Isn’t the point that a whole group of people get treated differently for no logical reason.
I think DMac’s point (I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong) is that African Americans could and can do more to take advantage of the opportunites available in this country.
I think Temple’s point is that there have undeniably been less opportunites available to them due to very real factors such as racism, institutional racism, white privelege, etc, which as I mentioned are all based the most superficial factors.
What I don’t get is why DMac trying to argue that this inequality isn’t a problem that everybody should be trying to solve.
“are not recognized as black in the US.”
When you say, “are not recognized” what does that mean? Is that some sort of “legal” term – as in, “The United States recognizes the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.”
Or do you mean “recognize” to say that those persons are considered to be something else?
Lets see some pictures!!!
By the way – Is Dundee in the United States? I’m not sure if that source is relevant – but since you sent it – perhaps we should explore it in detail.
For example, there is this pearl:
“Inexperienced persons can correctly sex over 90% of causasian skeletons…”
What’s with the necrophilia?
David:
Is there something you’re not telling us?
Jones – inequality will never be solved, if it is not one thing it will be another. I only care there there is opportunity for everyone, and it doesn’t have to be equal opportunity, just opportunity. As long as you have that everyone will have a means to advance themselves within society.
Also, personally I didn’t want to get into race and all the other stuff, this is a thread Temple3 wanted to go down, so he could “learn me something” so I’m doing it to kill time.
- Temple3
When I say not recognized as black in the US, I mean just that, regarded as, looked upon, etc. It is pretty clear.
See pictures of what.
Dundee is not in the US, but it is relevent because negroid, mongoloid, and caucosoid features are pretty consistant throughout the world.
Thank you…sort of. Though it must be said that you’re the one who initiated a discussion on race. I have NEVER discussed race on this site outside of the context of racism – which we have not even closed in on. So, this is a walk through your brain – not mine. Shall we continue?
Could you tell me why YOU have determined that the features you listed should determine what makes a person “Black American” versus some of those I listed like shoe size or hat size or something else.
The rationale is not clear. You’ve explained what you believe – not the underlying why. Hence the need for pictures – so we can teach the youth – so that we can DEMONSTRATE, not merely PROCLAIM what we/you mean… Help me out here.
Thanks again.
The links provide evidence enough that physical bone structure along with cranial structure can show whether a person is a negroid, compound that with dark skin and in America you have a black American. That is extremely clear that even a child can understand it.
So I’m pretty much done with this line of explanation. Everything has been laid out. Also you are the on who opened up the discussion on what is race, don’t try to backtrack.
I’ve told you what a black American is, now will you tell me why blacks can not transfer prosperity.
Is this man “negroid” an “American Negro” a “Black American” or something else?
http://www.blackpast.org/files/blackpast_images/powell_adam_clayton2.jpg
Thanks Lucy…dohnn fahget da ess’planashens.
Yes Adama Clayton Powell is and he is a black American.
corection.
I meant to type,
Yes I know who Adam Clayton Powell is and he is a black American.
You still haven’t told me why blacks can’t transfer prosperity though.
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/16/photos/flo-powelldad.jpg
Also Adam Clayton Powell Jr. had very prominant negroid features, as evidenced in the link above.
Why is Adam Clayton Powell a “Black American”? He appears to not meet any of the criteria which you’ve set down.
Can you reconcile the obvious conflict here?
Is his skin “dark” enough? Are his features sufficiently “negroid”? Is his hair sufficiently “curly”? Are we back to something more subjective. Perhaps this man had a size 14 foot.
Awaiting your clarifications.
To which prominent negroid features are you referring? Please be specific.
Lower area of mouth juts out, area around eyes, and nose. Add to that his lips, plus he is dark skinned.
Temple, …yes, I guess class is still in session! About Sowell, I haven’t read much in a long time. On one hand I like that he relies heavily on statistics and data in some of his books, but most of the other stuff is ridiculous. Have you seen any of his columns in the New York Post? He just loves to deny institutional racism… I think the last time I read his column he was using his own recent anecdotal personal experiences to support the notion that Driving-While-Black was nonsense… He never did mention the New Jersey study…
Jones, thank for the drop in…
But I find DMac’s ststement below extremely troubling and perhaps the root of the issue:
“inequality will never be solved, if it is not one thing it will be another. I only care there there is opportunity for everyone, and it doesn’t have to be equal opportunity, just opportunity. As long as you have that everyone will have a means to advance themselves within society.”
Inequality may never be solved but should be minimized. This kind of comfort level and acceptance with inequality only allows it to continue. The fact that a few kids made a success of themselves from the worst school in America does not mean you don’t do anything about that school… (insert 50 other examples). Instituional change and self-help are not mutually exclusive principles…
David:
Would you say that Powell would be too dark-skinned to be “recognized” as Caucasoid or “white”?
By the way, you have not provided a single image (other than Adam returning from vacation in Bimini) to define “Black Americans.”
You are one lazy gubnah. They gon’ hafta moov da capital to Immobile, Alabama…then you can sit up in your EZ chair and do next to nothing all day long.
http://www.celebritybabyscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/mr_fp_182071wtmk.jpg
The gentleman in this picture appears to have a protruding jaw and skin about the shade of Mr. Powell. His nose is clearly quite large. His lips don’t appear to be any much thicker than Mr. Powell’s and his hair seems to be quite thick – even bushy. Is he a “Black American”?
Thanks for your help on this DMac.
Temple3 – grasping at straws. The picture I provided of Powell was not about skin color it was about his face, and to first show that he has very prominent negroid features, that along with his dark skin color would place him as black. Simple as that.
I’m not going to provide any pictures because I do not have to, I told you what classifies as a black American and I’m done.
As for your pic of Schwartzenegger, you bring a picture of a tanned Arnold who has no negroid features and expect me to think he is black. LOL
Give it a break man, you aren’t making yourself look better at all.
Tell me why can’t blacks transfer prosperity?
You’re not even close to done. The picture of Powell which I posted of Powell no more fits your definition than that of Arnold. Keep trying.
No I don’t anyone who comes on this site and looks at Powell’s face can tell he has negroid features. Arnold simply does not have negroid features.
http://www.lamptonparkfc.co.uk/assets/images/arnold_schwarzenegger.jpg
His jaw is recessed, his eyes are smaller, his nose narrower, plus he is not dark skinned. I know you are trying real hard to make a point but you don’t have one.
So lets talk about why blacks can’t transfer prosperity?
Rhetorical jousting (regardless of how poorly you do it) is no substitute for visual clarity. Show and prove.
Dark skin – how dark is dark enough? And why?
Which features (or combination, thereof) are decisive? And why?
You’ve answered none of these questions – except to share some necrophilia document from Australia.
Wow necrophillia document, yeah I gave you two links about how race could be determined from bones and cranial structure, and you can’t stand that so you dismiss it as necrophillia.
Wow Temple3, this is over. The comments in this thread prove my point easily. The only one in this thread stalling is you. I’ve answered every question you’ve posed to me and given you sources.
You can’t even explain your own statement. It is clear to see who is discussing a topic on firm ground and who is simply trying to waste time because they have nothing to say.
Get back with me when you can come correct Temple3.
By the way, tell me about why blacks can’t transfer prosperity.
I didn’t dismiss merely because of the necrophilia. We haven’t even begun to discuss that garbage…we will – eventually – and you won’t like it.
If I could get a single picture from you which demonstrates your position – we’d be good. What you merely need to do is post links to pictures of persons with “dark skin” sufficient to be deemed “Black American” and dark skin insufficient to be deemed “Black American” – then we’ll know the line. Then you need to list the specific Negroid features which must be in evidence. It’s really simple – you’ve had two days and only posted 1 pic of Adam post-Bimini.
Why you so lazy gubnah? Ain’t da ‘lection comin’ soon ’nuff fo ya? Get crackin.
By the way, I’ve found more prognathism, dark skin and large noses…it seems they’re everywhere.
http://i.pbase.com/t5/80/626580/4/68337362.YLct2MH8.jpg
Now hurry up…the weekend is almost here.
Dark is sufficient enough and I’ve given you links to sites which talk about the cranial features of negroids, mongoloids, and caucusoids. Take it or leave it but I’m done with it.
Answer my question now or just admit you can’t compete in an exchange of ideals with me. It is simple, either keep up your pathetic charade or come clean now.
Again, tell me why is it that blacks can not transfer prosperity.
“Dark is sufficient enough.”
In other words, “I can proclaim it, but I cannot demonstrate it.”
David – Thank you very much. I’ve always had that fundamental critique of you – and it is rooted in my assessment of your psychological dysfunction (admittedly non-clinical). Persons who proclaim things and either lack the capacity or willingness to provide a measure of proof are either lunatics or demagogues. You are clearly a bit of both (in my non-clinical assessment).
Given that, it’s no surprise that you are ensconced deeply within the Party of the Decider with nary of clue of who you are or how you came to be.
Ultimately, your determination that “Black Americans” have “negroid bone structure and dark skin” (at #45) is about as amateurish and ignant an answer to a question as I’ve come across since at least first grade.
Rather than kick it around in the sand box, I will take as final your statement that “dark is sufficient.” And, of course, you mean the word DARK since you’ve not provided any other means for anyone to determine what you mean.
To borrow from Will Farrell: absolutely “mind-bottling!!”
ROTFLMBAO.
Haven’t African Americans transferred prosperity in this country?
I know prosperity has been transferred from my Grand parents to my Parents to me and now to my children. The majority of African American’s in this country have transferred prosperity from generation to generation. Just because your specific family has not (if you are really in fact African American – as I said my spidey sense is still tingling…) does not reflect upon the rest of the community.
DM, I must say I feel really sorry for you. How can you go back and forth trying to establish Blackness through physical features. (with someone who is obviously stringing you along) In America, being Black is about the lens through which you view yourself as much as the lens through which society views you. The beauty about the year 2008 is that we can reject your racial construct, much as Barack has rejected the box that the Media (hillary and McCain) are trying to put him into. BTW prosperity has also been transferred in his family as well as in Michelle’s, and Craig’s.
This is why Barack’s message is sooo powerful. He is bypassing the stereotypical and sending his message directly to the people. It is funny. I don’t actually think it matters much whether he wins the Presidency (this time) or not. What he is doing in terms of the dialog on race is to let the Genie out of the bottle. Younger people understand this. My children aren’t in the same racial straight jacket as my parents (and much of White America) are. Going back to a thread from a month or so ago about “transformative Leaders” If Barack, the Man can stay true, he will become the moral leader of this country regardless of whether he becomes its political leader.
BTW
As I read the back and forth about Negroid features I could just picture Clarence Thomas and Antony Scalia having a similar discussion in some University Club Room over a scotch. Oh, add Dick Cheney to that mix.
Speaking of which, MODI did you see the recent SC decision where The SC overturned an Appeals Court ruling that the prosecutors excluding all prospective Black jurors from a Murder Trial resulted in an overturned verdict requiring a retrial.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/19/scotus.death/
SC decision was 7-2. Guess who the 2 were?
OOO- Temple3 wasn’t stringing me along at all, it is just a simple fact that a black person is black in the US because of their skin tone and facial/body structure. There is no strining along or going against it, it is fact and scientifically verified.
As for the transfering of prosperity, my family has passed down wealth of previous generations to all of their children and that is on both sides. My parents in turn have done the same for my siblings and me. I look at others and I don’t feel bad if they could not do the same, most likely a decision was made in their life where they choose to spend instead of save and to live paycheck to paycheck, that is a personal problem that needs to be fixed, not a societal one.
As for Barack, the man is a sinking ship, his “typical white person” comment is in no way helping him maintain that unifier moniker he has placed on himself.
OOO, thanks for that article. I hadn’t seen it. …but I’m not surprised… excluding black jurors is standard operating procedure for prosecutors in criminal cases. Any criminal defense lawyer will tell you that. They are just normally better at covering it up. What IS most shocking — even by their own standards — is that Thomas and Scalia sat out another easy one. BTW, just how many 8-1 or 7-2 decisions has Thomas been on. Some extraordinarily easy decisions. The man is a portrait of incompetence.
MODI – yeah Thomas is incompetent because he doesn’t believe in you. Give it a break, you aren’t objective enough to talk about any juror on the bench being incompentent.
A little extra credit for the entire class:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/brown/history/3-organized/images/wilkinswhitemarshall.jpg
Who is the man in the middle?
What’s his claim to fame?
Is he a “Black American”? If so, why?
If not, why not?
And I’m out.
MODI – thanks for letting me mash up knuckle head and rummage through his psych file. I’ll leave you to your super professional and excellent blog. Your indulgence is always appreciated.
Temple3 -
I’d like to thank you for proving absolutely nothing.
The man in the middle is Walter White and for all intents and purposes he is a white American who chose to be called/grouped/identified as a “black” American.
Why don’t you explain why blacks can not transfer prosperity before you run off or is it too much to expect you to back up anything you post.
“for all intents and purposes” – what does that mean?
What’s his claim to fame?
How is it remotely possible that he “chose to be called/grouped/identified as a “black” American?
Isn’t that a biological definition?
Can a person with DARK SKIN and “NEGROID BONE STRUCTURE” choose to be called/grouped/identified as a “non-black” American?
Finish the job. Now that you’re ass deep in the quicksand, ain’t no point ta wigglin’.
“For all intents and purposes” – means how it sounds. it is pretty clear.
As for White, like I said he is a white American who wants to be classified as black, he has no negroid cranial features and is not dark skinned. He is a white man in this country, as long as he choose not to tell people he had black parents.
What I’ve said is pretty clear.
As for his claim to fame, I don’t care and it doesn’t matter because it isn’t relevant to the conversation.
There is no biological definition for a black American, because nationality isn’t part of your genetic makeup is it.
There is no job to finish, hell there never was a job.
You asked me what qualifies as a black American, and I told you what I think qualified as a black American.
– DMac, I think that Thomas’ voting record, his so-called “objectivity”, and your own, all speak for itself.
– Temple, no problem at all. Anytime you want to be Professor Temple or merely Dr. Phil, the floor is yours!
MODI – I’m sorry but your last post (96), the comments directed at me, made no sense with regard to how he is not qualified for his job.
“There is no biological definition for a black American, because nationality isn’t part of your genetic makeup is it.”
That sounds like a reversal of position to me. I believe every definition you’ve provided is biological – skin color and bone structure. Are you saying these are not part of the definition of a Black American? You seem to be going backwards.
Is there another definition for a “Black American” that you would like to submit other than the failed biological definition you submitted roughly 60 posts ago?
I got all night.
And, if you’re too lazy to find out Walter White’s claim to fame, you probably should NEVER EVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER blog about race and biology again – in this life or the next. Ya dig.
On a more comical note – how can a person who “for all intents and purposes chose to be” a “Black American” be called a “white American” by YOU? On what basis are you now making that determination after you submitted there is NO BIOLOGICAL DEFINITION FOR A BLACK AMERICAN?
Holla back after you’ve burned that very last crack vial. Me and snookie gon help you re-up. It’s gonna be a long weekend! LOL
Temple3
One question: why?
We laughed the jolly nigger David off of The Starting Five.
Last week Dwil finally banned him.
So now he comes to muddy up the water at Modi’s place.
And you egg him on.
Why, brother?
We have, all of us, already seen what it’s taking him a long time to see.
This “lesson” right here is like Jay-Z responding to Soulja Boy, know what I mean?
So, why do it?
Some of us just want to read Modi’s fine blog in peace…
I referred to it as “playing with Tiger food.” I’m done. Glad to hear from you – hope all is well.