
"Nobody roots for Goliath" — Wilt Chamberlain
Three years ago 7 foot 2 inch Roy Hibbert made his presence known in the NCAA tournament. More than any other team that year, the Hoyas nearly upset the eventual champion Florida Gators while giving up their last lead with 28 seconds remaining during the last of 28 minutes played by Roy Hibbert. …Last year Hibbert would lead his team into the Final Four by posting four straight double-doubles including a six-block effort against Tyler Hansborough’s North Carolina Tar Heels. Hibbert would do this despite being whistled for two fouls in the first 10 minutes of each of his previous seven games. The win against the Tar Heels helped produce a once-in-a-generation Final Four center contest between Hibbert and Ohio State’s Greg Oden. ESPN’s Andy Katz writes of the contest: “Hibbert was tremendous… he more than held his own against the younger, more celebrated Oden. Problem was, he spent too much time as a spectator… When Hibbert was out, the Hoyas were simply lost.” …Hibbert played only 24 minutes. Oden, also in foul trouble, only played 20 as the marquee big man match-up was reduced to a game of small ball. …Yesterday, Roy Hibbert’s Georgetown career came to a close. CNNSI’s Stewart Mandel writes:
“Most memorable upset: Davidson over Georgetown. The ‘David vs. Goliath’ analogy is usually cliché — Jim Nantz uttered it almost as soon as the clock expired — but it does seem to apply in this case. It was literally the triumph of the little guy (Stephen Curry) over the giant (Georgetown’s Roy Hibbert), with the Wildcats rallying from a 17-point second half deficit to boot.”
With Davidson not having any player taller than 6’8’’, Mandel’s narrative would be a great one – except for one tiny detail. Georgetown’s “Goliath” spent most of the game on the bench — again. Hibbert was whistled for his 4th foul while there was still 11:37 left on the clock and the Hoyas maintained an 11 point lead. With Hibbert’s absence, the help of nine offensive foul calls and 30 total free throw attempts, Davidson would prevail behind a brilliant late shooting display by Stephen Curry. Georgetown became only the 2nd team in NCAA tournament history to shoot over 60% from the field and still lose. After the game ESPN broadcaster Digger Phelps remarked: “I thought the X-factor in this game was Roy Hibbert getting into foul trouble. First two minutes of the game – he’s got two fouls [and] he’s down on the bench. He doesn’t play but 16 minutes for the whole game. When you look at Roy Hibbert on that bench – that to me was the reason why they lost that game.” …Both Phelps and Dick Vitale were very generous in their praise of Davidson, their coach, and especially Stephen Curry. But those accolades did not stop them from highlighting a much larger problem plaguing NCAA college basketball. Vitale adds:
"And let me say this: it’s been bothering me for a long time guys, and I’m going to share it here. Hibbert gets into foul trouble. I really have a problem with our game in that we have star players and a couple of whistles and they are out of the game. We are the only sport where a player is penalized [and] put to the sideline because of a whistle. Think about that. I would love to see a rule change to where a guy… he can stay in the game… coach’s discretion. If he goes over the foul limit and then if he fouls – it’s two shots and the ball. But at least your preparation… getting ready for the game… you can play your star player. Certainly that hurt Georgetown and that’s part of the game."
Vitale is not the only one who has been bothered for a long time by this. Georgetown fans and Roy Hibbert himself have had their last three seasons defined by questionable calls at best and phantom fouls at worst. Consider that in his final game the last three years, Hibbert has averaged only 22.7 minutes because of foul trouble, but has attempted only 5 free throws over those three games (avg. 1.7 per game). Now consider how "hot" Hibbert was in those three losses, as he ended up shooting 17-25 or a spectacular 68%. Think about THAT.
“Big Man Bias?”: Is Vitale overreacting when bringing up rule changes? Hasn’t college basketball had the same 5-foul rule since forever? Do we really need to get drastic? The answer is “no”, “yes”, and “yes”. Firstly, the rule has always been a bad rule for the very reasons that Vitale articulates. However, the problem is much worse because today’s referees officiate differently. Gone are the: unwritten rules that the best players should ultimately decide the games and that only REAL fouls should be whistled at critical junctures. Add to that what has seemed to emerge as a “big man bias” where tough man-on-man defense has been replaced by flop artists in search of their next Oscar. No one pays a price more than the very few “classic centers” that still exist.
“The Golden Era": Georgetown has a long tradition in great centers including Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, and Othella Harrington. In his three championship games between 1982 and 1985, Ewing averaged over 35 minutes per game during three All-American center matchups. In his freshman year he played 37 minutes while North Carolina’s Sam Perkins played 38. In his senior year, he played 39 minutes while his Villanova nemesis Ed Pinckney played 37. And in one of NCAA history’s greatest center matchup in 1984, Ewing and Akeem Olajuwon both got into serious foul trouble and still each managed to log 30 and 32 minutes. About the only similarity between Hibbert and Ewing is that Patrick also received a meager five free-throw attempts over the course of his three championship games. While statistics like these and other information have prompted some to raise the prospect of a longstanding Georgetown bias, this column will refrain from that argument without further analysis.
"The Stolen Era?": After yesterday’s game, Georgetown coach John Thompson III was virtually fighting off tears as he reflected: “I’ve got a very special senior class… They’ve done so much for me. I just feel like I let them down.”… With all due respect to the heartfelt class displayed by Coach Thompson, blame is to be shared by the NCAA and its referees. While someone owes Roy Hibbert an apology, the cause goes far beyond Georgetown basketball. Now it is time to blow the whistle on the whistle-blowers. Vitale’s suggestion of “two shots and the ball” for any foul over one’s personal limit seems like a much more reasonable alternative. If such a measure is too drastic for the NCAA Rules committee, then we would minimally suggest adding a 6th foul like the NBA. Whatever the final solution, something must be done… so that the next time highly anticipated pairings like Oden vs. Hibbert or Davidson vs. Goliath come along, the outcome will be decided by who is playing with game on the line instead of who is laying in vain on the pine.






MODI:
I see you’re putting in work. That’s my squad – so I’m a little disappointed. If I was still of that age I’d be fuming – but life intrudes. Thanks for the perspective. I believe Hibbert will be an excellent professional player. He must continue to work on his strength – which may be the least of his problems given what resources will be provided at the next level. His footwork is absolutely beautiful. He has very few bad habits which are part and parcel of watching less fundamentally sound players over time.
By the way, Dell Curry’s son Stephen is the real deal.
So its an instituional problem in the NCAA, that Hibbert does not know how to play reasonable defense so that he can stay in the game?
How many free throws did the Hoyas miss yesterday? I didn’t see the entire game (I’ll probably watch excerpts this week.) I did see Hibbert miss the front end of a 1-and-1 late. That’s been an Achilles Heel for years.
and how many of those fouls on Hibbert were over-the-back or loose-ball fouls? I’m not trying to be critical since I wasn’t watching the whole thing. My mind was focused somewhere else (cooking).
Temple, G-Town was terrible from the line (8-17) but still took 13 less free throws. Of Georgetown’s 20 “turnovers”, 9 were by way of offensive foul. Have you ever heard of such a thing? But the larger point here is far beyond G-Town. Hibbert’s career is over, but a serious problem remains in college basketball, and Vitale is on the money. People come to see the best players play. For almost every sport besides college basketball (even NBA for the most part), that is exactly what you get.
DMac, yes, it is an institutional problem. If Hibbert and Oden were playing in the Final Four 25 years ago and played the EXACT SAME WAY, there is no way that they would have combined for 44 minutes between them. It just wouldn’t happen. Unfortunately, the finer art of flopping, hypersensitive whistles, an anti-big man bias, and a need to promote “Cinderellas” who will never ever win a championship is ruining the game. The problem is far bigger than Roy Hibbert…
Okori, I hope that it was a good meal…
it was. however i have found that I cannot watch anything when making sauces. unattended sauces lead to burnt sauces, and burnt homemade tomato sauces= suck worse than the T-Wolves.
I would say this though regarding Hibbert and fouling: Referee seminars are the cure, followed by 6 fouls. Because each case is different, and sometimes a guy is just playing bad defense and fouling to cover his ass.
The fact remains that Oden and hibbert had foul troubles the whole season. it was not just in the playoffs. They needed to learn how to play defense in the college system, now they will have to both adjust to playing defense in the NBA.
As for superstar rules, I’m against that, people may come to games to see AI, Kobe, Lebron, etc, but that doesn’t mean that all the rules should be disregarded because they need to stay in the game. That is a ridiculous assertion.
oh and MODI? If you’re listening to the Fan Chris Russo just said Kevin Love is the best freshman in the country.
DMac, Oden and Hibbert will both receive and extra foul in the NBA and have far more competent referees to understand the etiquette of the game. Every NBA ref knows that in a playoff game that if you will call that 5th or 6th foul, it can’t be some ticky-tack foul that might be called in the 1st quarter in order to set an orderly tone for the game. …This ref etiquette is not “disregarding rules”, but understanding the “spirit of the law” instead of “the letter of the law”.
Okori, I would stop complaining if they added the 6th foul. That would mean that you have to earn your way to the bench in the first half….
About the sauce, I understand. Getting that sauce just right is highly important. May I suggest a trick where tomato PASTE is slowly simmered in olive oil… It creates a nice base where you could toss whatever you like afterward… can never have too much garlic… and no, despite being a sports media watch website, I don’t listen to talk radio anymore… purely health reasons…
wow….. i HATE HATE tomato paste. I use garlic, onions, and red peppers. if you cook everything right it’s a sauce so good that i have gotten marriage proposals when i have cooked it.
and re the 6th foul: I have no problem with this. However I still maintain that it should be 50-50. The players have to know how the referees are calling the game and change their play accordingly. And the refs need to cut down drastically on calling fouls unless it is a clear call.
[...] A Lot More Than “Home Cookin’” Posted on March 24, 2008 by dwil (Click here for another Hibbert article using statistics relative to Hibbert vs. other “big men” he [...]
I wonder what conference the refs were from. Being that I live in ACC country, I’m used to bad officiating. It would seem natural that since they were in ACC country, and neither is in the ACC, that ACC officials would be at a G’town-Davidson game.
It should be noted, that the current saviour of college basketball, Tyler Hansborough bangs more than anyone else, and gets very few fouls called on him. I’ve heard ESPN analysts talk about how he’s fouled more than anyone else. Well, he creates alot of that contact. It’s not fair that he can get away with all the banging and yet, Hibbert gets penalized for ticky tack stuff. I’m not going to fault Hansborough for this. If the refs would actually call the game the way it’s supposed to be, he’d probably adjust his game. All of this being said, that’s why Hibbert will be a much better pro prospect than Hansborough.
The NCAA seems to delight in giving players who are better pro prospects grief. It seems sometime that the officials seem to try to level out the playing field by letting those with less talent get away with more. While conversely, those who are talented, aren’t allowed any leeway.
kos:
interesting take. I think Hibbert will be a better pro because of his size and footwork – but I can certainly see where you’re coming from. By the way, I think Hansborough will have to change his typical release point on interior shots. He is very athletic (strength, straight line speed), but is not a high riser and that means he can get his shot stuffed in traffic. If Psycho T can consistently get his shots up on the glass, he’s going to be a terror.
Temple3 – Not in the pros, he won’t. He isn’t athletic enough to dominate in the NBA. He might be a nice guy to come off the bench and hopefully get you 8 – 10 pts a game with 5 -6 rebounds though.
Okori — soryy about the tomato paste suggestion… but I won’t argue about a sauce that has received marriage proposals
kos — if I had the time, videotape, and inclination, I would review every foul called on both Hibbert and Hansborough for a comparison… I suspect the results would be drastic…
– I think that neither Hansborough or Hibbert will be starter material in the pros…
[...] consider this from Cosellout’s article on the Hibbert-foul trouble [...]
Both Hibbert and Hansborough will be drafted. Hansborough would make a nice edition to an established team that needs someone to rebound, rough someone up start a fast break, and get very little scoring. Say, like a Golden State. He could even start. Hibbert, he will start early on. Hopefully he will go to a team that’s willing to put in the time to refine his game. He’s nowhere near as polished as an Alonzo Mourning or Patrick Ewing, coming out of college.
Scoring in the league – even on the box – is not about jumping ability. It’s about creating separation for your shot. A lot of players who were able to jump over players in college never master the fine art of getting separation. Paul Pierce, not a high-flyer by any means, is a master at this. There have been several proficient scorers who were not big leapers. My assessment of his game is conditional and predicated on his capacity to significantly adjust his game. I think there is evidence that he has trouble scoring amongst “the trees.” UNC’s loss to G’town provided some evidence of that – as did stints of Clemson games I saw this year. Psycho T. is a big “If” – but this is not an insurmountable hurdle by any means.
If you think he’ll only amount to an 8 and 5 guy, that’s interesting and it’s duly noted.
MODI –
I still think Hibbert should have skipped town and headed to the pros after last year if he planned on being a serious hoops player in the pros. His performance last year against UNC and OSU made him look great, even though the whole time it was clear Thompson’s offense was not fit for him (he spent more time at the top of the key than Reggie Miller in Indiana). Or maybe the team just couldn’t work the option down to where he’d get it on the block quite enough. I was glad to see Davidson take G’town down because Curry looks like he’s about 8 years old but has game for DAYS. Upset. Central.
…though I admit I won’t be rooting for that UNC upset. Does Hansborough remind anyone else of Hacksaw Jim Duggin from old school wrastlin’?
Good article Modi.
I really despise college basketball because of the way it’s officiated and how that affects team’s strategies.
The game is way too guard oriented, but it discourages penetration by the asinine charge rules. Consequently, college basketball has been reduced to a bunch of guards passing the ball around the perimeter before jacking up a wild shot.
It’s hard to watch college basketball after mostly watching the NBA. The game is reffed so differently it’s discordant. I can’t adjust to fouls I know would be called in the league, or understand why other fouls are always called in college but never in the pros.
The fouls called on big men establishing post position or playing playing post defense are just sad.
What’s up Tim. Hope that you’re keeping your “mind rite”… I think that Hibbert passed because it was such a deep crop last year. He probably would have gone #9 to The Bulls over Noah. If he goes under that pick then he made the right call… if not then you are right… we’ll see…
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Big Man, college refs truly suck. And because of the disparity in size of centers, the smaller guys always go flying/flopping at the slightest contact… now don’t get me started on the ridculous short distance of that 3-point line. It really ought to be moved back to at least international regulation…
Other great site folks need to know about if they don’t already know: http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com/
and here is the one thing about Hibbert that concerns me: He plays at the top of the key WAY TOO MUCH. I like Brook Lopez as a pro prospect more.
Hibbert is a bum. That guy is a slower Eddy Curry. Please stop talking about this guy as if he is going to be a good pro. The guy is a bum in the making.
Okori >
That’s the Princeton offense. It’s the same reason that NC State fans hated Herb Sendek. He had a good young big man like Cedric Simmons, and instead of letting him work down low, he had him flashing to the top of the key. The Princeton offense wasn’t created for teams with a big man. It was created to slow the game down and make it possible for Princeton to be more competitive with teams that were better than them.
Simmons has languished in the pros because of bad teaching in college. Hopefully, the same fate won’t befall Hibbert.
well JT3 should modify the Princeton offense just a bit to work to his team’s strengths. For instance… if you have a good low-post player make him the hub of the half-court offense. Let him pass to open shooters or take it to the basket himself.
[...] Concerned about how centers tend to get really ticky-tack fouls in college ball? Call it the “Goliath effect.” [Cosellout] [...]
MODI — Thanks for the shout-out! Keep up the great work on the site.
Hibbert reminds me of a big man I used to play with from elementary to high school. He looked JUST like Hibbert (ush-bush, skinny, ten feet tall) and had a similar game where he would be a non-factor because of fouls or distaste for the paint (at least Hibbert had a Princeton offense to blame… we ran a motion offense in h.s.).
All-in-all, I hate when a team has a big man to use, but does not fully utilize them for whatever reason. Ah, if I were a foot taller…
(sense any bitterness? naahh… ha!)
*sigh* I’m not in the mood for any conversation. my job is in the NY Daily News. the ACS commissioner is pissed.
“I hate when a team has a big man to use, but does not fully utilize them for whatever reason”
Tim, I guess that you’re not a big fan of Don Nelson…
Okori, I missed that article?
Daily News from yesterday, page 10.
[...] 24, 2008 (Click here for another Hibbert article using statistics relative to Hibbert vs. other “big men” he [...]
Do you guys have a recommendation section, i’d like to suggest some stuff
Which was both attention-grabbing in addition as insightful!
Thanks for sharing your views with us.