
After Donnie Walsh had been hired as President for the New York Knicks, the headlines in the New York local papers would read: “Walsh a Light in Darkness”… “New Hire Brings Hope to Garden Hell”… and “New GM has Patience and Smarts to Fix Knicks”. In the nearly universal mainstream praise Walsh was correctly and rightfully credited for the outstanding job he did as General Manager of the Pacers in building a title-contending team in the 1990’s and re-tooling that team between 2000-2002 with trades that exchanged veterans for Jermaine O’neal, Ron Artest, and Brad Miller. And by all media accounts he is as likeable and respected executive as there is in the league. How much does the mainstream media love Donnie Walsh? Enough to have collective amnesia. There has been a glaring absence of mainstream sports media criticism toward Walsh’s post-2003 record that has been mostly relegated to the blogosphere:
“The DunMurphy Trade”: In 2006 free-agent Al Harrington did not come free. It cost Indiana their 2007 #1 draft pick which the Atlanta Hawks used on Acie Law (next pick: Thaddeus Young). Months later the Pacers would ship Harrington and Stephen Jackson to the Golden State Warriors for Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy (+ Ike Diogu). While this year’s improved play by Dunleavy has been a pleasant surprise, the “DunMurphy trade” still highlights a year-long stretch from January 2006 to January 2007 where Indiana would turn Artest, S. Jackson, Acie Law or Thaddeus Young, and a 1st round draft pick into DunMurphy, Ike Diogu, and Shawne Williams. The trade would propel Golden State back to respectability and Indiana into mediocrity.sTeams vs. Rosters: In 2008, the Knicks may have the worse “team”, but the Indiana Pacers have the worse “roster”. Bad teams are judged by today’s wins, bad rosters are judged by tomorrow’s potential. The worst type of roster is one that is just bad enough to consistently miss the playoffs, and just good enough not to secure top 5 draft pick for the next few years. The Pacer’s trade assets are limited to an all-star caliber player with a hefty contract and gimpy knee (Jermaine O’neal) and one promising young player (Danny Granger). The rest are solid veterans with long-term bloated contracts who have hit their ceiling (see “DunMurphy” and Jamal Tinsley). Should Oneal’s knee mimic the decline of Allan Houston, the Pacers would have a GM nightmare not seen since the… 2003 Knicks – easily the worst inherited roster this century and perhaps NBA history.Pacers 2003 vs. Pacers 2008: The only thing that the Knicks and Pacer rosters had in common in December 2003 was Harrington. Unfortunately, the Knicks had Othella. While Isiah’s only real trade chip was Kurt Thomas, Indiana’s roster was built for championship contention – which is exactly what they did for one season. With Jermaine O’Neal, Ron Artest, Al Harrington, Jeff Foster, and Jamal Tinsley all age 26 or younger, the future would be bright for many years to come. Apologists will point to “the Palace Brawl” or off-court incidents for the Pacer’s demise, but those facts are not the main reason that the Pacers received 10 cents on the dollar for Artest, Harrington, and Stephen Jackson. It was bad management. The worst executive job during the last four years in the NBA has been by the Indiana Pacers – by far.Knicks 2003 vs. Knicks 2008: Despite the media windstorm and windbags, Walsh just left a hopeless situation for greener pastures. In 2003, Isiah had to bake a cake with no flour, eggs, or sugar. In 2008 Walsh has to merely exchange some ingredients to start winning and start receiving undue praise. Big difference. Isiah’s greatest failures were chemistry (see Zach Randolph trade) and coaching (see this season). Unlike 2003, the Knicks actually have assets. That includes young, solid, but misused role players with tiny contracts (David Lee, Nate Robinson, and Renaldo Balkman); misused talent that could attain higher value with better coaching/utilization (Curry/Crawford); expiring contracts (Stephon Marbury/Malik Rose); and most importantly, the Knicks are looking at a top 5 pick in the 2008 draft. Translation: Walsh and the Knicks have talent, options, and a future.Walsh vs. Bird: Scoop Jackson recently wrote about “Isiah Thomas vs. Larry Bird Double Standard” and how the media should hold Bird should be “in the same boat”. While one could argue that Bird deserves his very own ship for turning “wine into water”, a bigger question remains: as Pacer President and CEO since 2003 just how much did Donnie Walsh help steer that vessel. Walsh recently indicated that he lacked full control in recent years, and reporter Stephen A. Smith also suggested that Bird was the primary decision maker. For his part, Bird recently stated: “Now it’s one voice; it’s mine”. And IndyStar writer Bob Kravitz who recently wrote: “after The Brawl, Walsh stepped back up as a major front-office presence. For the next few years, Walsh was primarily responsible for trades”. Does that include the Artest and “DunMurphy” trades? Perhaps the public will never know.
“The GM’s I talk to regularly around the league …for the last five years have told me that Donnie Walsh is just over-rated in large part because he has such great relationships with the national writers. He’s very good at buddying up to the media. He has had final say on all the moves that have made the Indiana Pacers such a mess over the last five years… At age 67 he is getting 5 million a year to rebuild the New York Knicks. This is just insanity-squared to me.”
Perhaps Bayless wasn’t aware of Donnie Walsh’s most useful qualifications: he is old, white, and well-connected. So long as you have been successful at an earlier point in your career “old, white, and media-friendly” = instant respectability in the eyes of a media contingent that mostly looks like their siblings or children. It helps to explain why the three most common names to surface amongst media recommendations were Walsh, Jerry Colangelo (68), and Jerry West (69), despite Indiana’s recent demise, Colangelo’s GM inactivity, and West’s forgettable stint with the Memphis Grizzlies. Rarely has a media so routinely critical bypassed so many opportunities for legitimate criticism. …And then it started to all make sense:
Donnie might be exactly what the Knicks need. Making the Knicks better is the easy part. Replacing Isiah as coach, playing sensible rotations, adding a top 5 pick, and subtracting Zach Randolph are moves that will instantly lead to 10-15 more wins. Add one solid chemistry-improving trade and the Knicks are back in the playoffs. The hard part is: having the media promote patience that would simply no longer be granted under Isiah Thomas – and many other incoming executives; patience not to make a drastic roster overhaul; patience to let young guys develop as they did last year; patience to let misused players restore their trade value before sending them off for a dime on the dollar; patience to potentially take a free agent crack at Lebron/DWade/CBosh. (Note: 2010 may be the ONLY annual exception to the rule of “The Salary Cap Myth”); and patience to accept the following statements from Walsh at the press conference:
– “It isn’t the players themselves, but the mix of players”– “There are always guys that leave teams that aren’t very good and then go to good teams and boom they look great. And everyone says ‘how could you let that guy go?’”– "I’m not the great new hope"… "I’m just a guy who’s going to come in and try to create a team. And it’s not going to happen overnight, so I don’t want any illusions."





You remain on point. Excellent as usual MODI
Agreed. Excellent, as usual.
It astounds me that more time was spent over the last few days discussing the media policy than the team. Just goes to show how myopic the NY media is.
Modi,
Winning is not part of this equation, so focusing on what has “Walsh done lately” is a mistake.
Stern’s call to the old boy network was to protect the declining value of the league, & individual teams while attempting to fleece European businessmen.
Globalizing the NBA, and international ownership is a must, not a goal. Seven NBA-teams are having fans/ownership issues. The Bobcats, Hornets, Sonics, Grizzles, Hawks, Kings & Bucks. These teams will have to either relocate or find new owners in the next two-three years,(09-10), and there aren’t any viable U.S. cities left. Memphis can’t find a buyer, and the Bucks were set to be sold for $100 million less then the Bobcats were purchased, (The owners bitched & Stern killed the deal) Combining this instability w/ the drama
at your most valuable franchise, makes it impossible to get Stern’s perceived value for a franchise.
Stern’s 4-step plann for adding value:
#1 Create the illusion of “all is well”. Step#2-Create the “appearance” of stability in the garden. Winning is secondary, (even Walsh said 2-3 years). Step#3-Get the MSM to focus on the positives,(a form of marketing) Walsh is a New Yawker, built the Pacers,forget last 4-years, Step#4–Find new owners that will ignore the market but believe the hype.
The media is just a pawn for Stern. By being myopic,(Isiah must go), they are missing the Real Story.
Peace & Blessings
Modi:
Great piece as usual.
You know how I feel on the Zach trade. That one move made a mess of Isiah’s legacy and it would not be easily erased.
Think about it for a minute.
How would you feel if your boss made you the head of a department. After the first year, you did a good, but there were some areas that needed development. You sit down with your boss, and he promises to get the people to fill that void, only to get someone that clashes with your duties. You try doing your dailies, but lo and behold, it’s already done by that new person.
You begin feeling that you’re on the outside looking in. The chemistry developed in that first year quickly erodes.
That’s Eddy Curry!
The Zach trade set Curry and Lee, (the two bright spots of a team with chemistry) back a few notches. That team from last year did not need scoring or rebounding. The team needed a solid post defender to play next to Curry. I’ve seen Zach fight his team mates over rebounds to pad his stats.
Last year’s team was at the top of the league in rebounding all year. The team had only one bad shot taker in Crawford. Add Zach, and that makes it two at the end of games, and we wonder why we can’t win games.
The new GM would come in and be hailed as a savior by just adding a post defender to this team, plus a point guard and reap the benefits of Zeke’s works.
That one move, more than anything else killed Zeke.
Thanks guys.
Marc R, yeah, it seems to be all about the media policy. On one hand I don’t blame Dolan one bit. The News and the Post were so vicious since the LB fallout that I would have done the same thing. How can you invite people into your home when they consistently piss on your rug? …Now Walsh could change that dynamic because he is given this uncritical reverence. Now he could open the door because the media might act like respectable house guests.
Statesman, I appreciate your insightful post and I think that you nailed it from Stern’s desired goal. I’m still surprised that the “media as pawn” has so easily gone along for the ride.
African, now you KNOW that I’m with your post verbatim, even if some of our good Knick friends disagree. Up until the Zach trade, we had a good foundation. Walsh will come out smelling like roses with even the slightest bit of tweaking. And I gathered fron the press conference that moving Zach away from Eddy will be his first priority. He didn’t say it, but the code was there.
APB:
Modi. Lives, Barf and Statesman.
report to: nyer.sosblog.com
Always on point, Modi.
I almost gagged listening to the nut riding of Walsh. I made the same point you made about his new media policy being his best decision. Peter Vescey actually said Walsh should get a three year grace period because of how bad the Knicks’ roster is.
Bullshit.
Big Man, it is absolutely ridiculous. “3 year grace period?” It makes me wanna go back in Vescey’s archives and see if he was saying the same shit about Isiah who inherited a far worse roster…
Hmmmm, iono MODI. If these were zeke’s greatest failures, they weren’t his only ones. I’d say not getting Larry Brown and Dolan and himself on the same page in year one (geebus murphy it was Brown’s first year coaching the Knicks!) was an ego-driven failure of some sort too.
I watched that press conference too and I thought it curious the amount of love he was being shown. I mean, the only “hardball” questioning was the constant and unrealistic pressing for deets on when zeke’s gonna be fired. Nothing much about his record (the bad side of it).
But that said, I think it’s pretty much a given that every GM is going to make a boner move of one kind or another at some point. Even Buford arguably made a bad move selling off greasy-headed Scola. Happens. The thing is how do these guys look on balance. Every bone-headed move should be countered by a truly brilliant one. A so-so bad move offset by a so-so good one. And so on. The better GMs have more pluses in the bank than negatives.
Donnie, I think, has earned the right to get some please-save-us fawning from the NY media for all he’s done over the years. Even with the last few years 100% accredited to him, it’s safe to say he’s still a pretty good GM who makes more good moves over time than bad.
Zeke? Iono, man. Has he truly done anything brilliant as a GM? Sorry, I’m talking since drafting mighty mouse many years ago? I think his GM legacy is more a collection of clever-looking so-so moves than anything else.
You know how I feel about the Curry-Zach debate, too. Urryone thinks Curry made some great “improvement” last year when the only thing that changed really was his floor time (his per-minute performance was the same or mebbe a little worse than ever). With the exceptions of Lee, N8, Balkman (mebbe) and Zach, he’s amassed a collection of soft-headed millionaires. Nothin to write home about.
Just about every team given enough time and activity collects a couple expiring contract to trade. That’s no special “win” in and of itself, is it?
MODI
I had mentioned this over at SOMM regarding the change in the media policy at MSG. Was Isaiah set up for failure? As you layed it out, despite so much restriction placed on him, starting with the roster, ordering him to work with what he had and not make any more moves, ordering staff not to speak to the media, while allowing the media to kick them in the teeth,etc. Now Walsh is set up to ride off in the sunset as a hero, with a few choice moves.
I have to say that despite his errors, Isaiah has been fucked over again, by another owner/manager after doing the work nobody else wanted or in your piece could have done.
Folly, that Isiah quote was not meant to be all encompassing, but merely examples. Of course, he made more mistakes. The point about Isiah is that the team has far more assets than it did 4 years ago and no one is writing this or mentioning this. Do you disagree with this point?
– And this is just the opposite for the Pacers. The Pacers were a mansion and now they are a hole in the wall. Donnie Walsh is no spring chicken. The last 5 years become far more important as a predictor than his 25 year record. Using the “career logic” Lenny Wilkens is still one of the best coaches in all of basketball… Donnie Walsh is 67 tears old and GMing is a full-time grind. There is not a lot of good precedence about GMs of this age. To not receive questioning about the Pacers debacle in the press conference is inexcusable. It was the worst executive performance in the NBA and he did not receive ONE QUESTION. I mean, c’mon.
Ultimately the biased press will help Walsh become successful and that will help the Knicks. Walsh’s job is actually much easier than meets the eye because he walks in with lower expectations than Isiah ever did, but has many more assets to work with.
sankofa, I don’t really know the answer to your question. The media policy is a “chicken or egg” thing. The vitriol for isiah was so imbedded into writers that Dolan had almost no choice but to treat some of them like crap. The writers then write even worse articles. You just can’t win. The only guys I felt sorry for were the decent writers like NYTimes Howard Beck and Alan Hahn. They were unintended casualties of the battle with The Daily News and Post hacks…
But since Walsh is their fatherly hero, he can open the doors. Walsh seems like a really nice guy. But let’s be clear, there are few other nice guys who could have come off such a miserable executive performance and have almost the entire mainstream media ignore it… I think that the only critical article that I saw was from Ken Berger of Newsday, but I can’t seem to find it…
Modi,
Good stuff! I love the term “Knicks media Amensia.”
Puts them to shame! lol
No, never. Zeke has made the team better than when he found it. He doesn’t get enough credit for that and I’ll never argue differently on that point. I think the thing is that you want to see progression and it really feels safe to say Zeke’s spinning wheels at this point. If you can’t feel confident your GM has the goods to take things to the next level, then it’s time to try some new blood.
Some coaches are built for a specific situation, built for one specific task (say, instill a defensive mindset) and beyond that, they’re pretty much at sea. Mebbe it’s true of GMs too.
Is zeke a championship builder? MODI if you were the new owner of the Sonics, is Zeke on your very short list of GMs to build your championship team?
Damned fine point, MODI. Lord knows even Lenny was shocked to get another job offer after wasting the Raptors’ time and money for a couple years. In retrospect, we shouldn’t be too much surprised it was ole zeke who gave him the job offer
Anyway, I think it’s no small hyperbole to say the Pacers are a hole in the wall tho. They’re actually in a pretty good team. If Bird can manage a smart play with O’Neal, I’d say it’s between them, Philly and Toronto to take over the Piston’s spot as “perennial eastern power” in the next couple of years.
I don’t think coaching (at this level) is an old man’s game, but GMing might be a different story.
I’ll need to think some more about this “worst executive job during the last four years in the NBA” deal. Mebbe you’ll need to elaborate some more cuz I’m not yet convinced.
Folly,
– I think that we both agree that it is time for Zeke to be replaced, althought I would keep him around as a draft consultant as we approach our most important pick since Patrick Ewing.
– Actually, I believe that Zeke is a good GM for a young team or expansion team because they will have to build through the draft. He got Camby, Stoudemire, and McGrady in Toronto in 3 years so his track record is good. A young losing team that plans to build through the draft is a good fit for Isiah.
– The Pacers are in a world of shit because they are mired in mediocrity and won’t get any top draft picks, but can never get more than a 1st round exit in the best scenario. Basically their future rests on what they can get for trading Jermaine Oneal and his balky knee. Or they can go the cost saving route by saving 20M by trading him to the Knicks for Marbury and a young-in
. Dunleavy, Murphy, and Tinsley are on the hook for $30 million through 2011. Unlike the Knicks they can’t go way over the cap to get other players. 5 years from now they will still suck. Like I said, mired in mediocrity is the worst kind of team.
– Do you know any 67 year old GMs who have been successful?
– “I’ll need to think some more about this “worst executive job during the last four years in the NBA†deal.”
to me it is clear. To assess a GM performance you have to assess a starting point. This is where everybody overstates Isiah’s follies… most of his mistakes wer “chemistry mistakes”, but the Pacers let Artest, Harrington, and SteveJack go for very little in return. And they killed their cap. For the next three years they will be stuck in mediocrity. They won’t START rebuilding for another three years. To make the question easier for you let me ask you this: would you trade the entire Knicks roster for the entire Pacers roster? Or even this, would you trade the Pacers roster for ANY roster in basketball? Think about it…
Agreed.
Again, agreed. I think this kind of situation would be ideal for him. Give him reign for three years then your trigger finger should get real itchy (unless, perhaps, you can get him to work hand-in-glove with a good bean-counter/capologist. good luck with that.)
No doubt this off-season is mega crucial for the Pacers. It will either wedge the door open for deep playoff runs in the near-mid future or slam it airtight shut for another three, fo’ years.
But re their cap situation, JO represents $19M/yr (2yrs left). As a player and as a contract he’s still attractive. The key is to salvage some value out of that. Tricky, but not impossible.
Small note, by espn’s count, the three guys you mentioned are good for something over $24M, not $30M. They should be good players for another couple years before serious decline sets in. After that, they still have some value as serviceable bench guys with soon-to-expire contracts.
The Knicks’ problem right now is that other than Lee, they don’t have players most teams would love to have on their roster. Just a mess of beauty-in-the-eye guys (yes, that includes my boy zbo). The Knicks right now are mired in ho-humicrity.
That Auerbach guy comes to mind. In just about any profession, most guys that age have retired. That said, it doesn’t mean they’re automatically useless. Some old men in some professions can still do well in old age. F’rinstance, W. Buffett’ll pay your brother to spit in your eye if you tell him he should quit
Fair enough, MODI. That def has to go into the equation and zeke has consistently gotten short shrift on that end of the bargain. But the other end has to with actual results after the work began.
With Zeke, his mistakes have nearly cancelled out his successes. And like i say, all GMs make mistakes of one kind or another, given enough time. It’s about the final balance, when all is weighed.
Yes, zeke’s moved the yardsticks in the right direction (tho, c’mon, you have to admit it would’ve taken a real conscious effort to make that layden mess even worse). But after four years the cold, unfakeable results scream for themselves.
p.s. almost forgot…
If the assignment is “make me a serious playoff contender in three years” (which is to say, a team which by the end of year 3 should be strong enough to get past the first round if they don’t have to play the number one team in the conference) and i had to choose between the Knicks or Pacers as presently constructed, I think a non-partisan fan takes the Pacers.
And I’d certainly take them over the Grizz and (o wot thee heck) the Phoenix Suns
MODI…usually you and I agree on things….however, I cannot agree with you on this.
Walsh deserves everything he got at the conference. He was treated with respect because
he has earned it. Isiah doesn’t deserve any respect because he’s never built anything. He’s been here since 2003 and he hasn’t’ done one positive thing.
Walsh has complete control….something Isiah never had. When I say complete control…I mean the media policy and all. Dolan is taking a step back and won’t have nothing to do with the Knicks the way he has in the past. We need someone like Walsh to deal with the media….
We have the biggest and most notorious media in the world….we should have them on our side!!!!
Isiah is getting everything he deserves. The way he did Chaney, Wilkins and Brown was horrible. Now he’s going through the same thing and it’s beautiful to see. He looks like a kid that got his candy stolen LMAO. I supported Isiah up to the beginning of this year when I saw he was doing nothing different. I supported the Zach trade because I admire Zach’s talents and his aggresiveness. Curry lacks the latter……
This is the reason why Curry will be traded and Zach will be kept…..especially if we can get O’neal from Indiana for Marbury. Think about that trade and tell me it doesn’t make sense for both teams.
Other than that….it’s a great piece bro.
You know I’ll always read your stuff and have my say LOL…
Keep up the great work my friend.
Calling it “Media Amnesia” is generous. It’s actually disingenuousness and executive assassination by media rule. Shame on them.
Folly,
“by espn’s count, the three guys you mentioned are good for something over $24M, not $30M. They should be good players for another couple years before serious decline sets in. After that, they still have some value as serviceable bench guys with soon-to-expire contracts.”
Check out “hoopshype” http://hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm... I was looking at their year in 2011. Expiring contracts do not mean the same thing to Indiana as they do the Knicks. Not every team has the luxury to go over a lot in a subsequent trade. Dunleavy/Murphy/Tinsley will not allow Indiana to land a substantial player. They made the trade banking on Ike Diogu flourishing and that hasn’t happened. Also, I just don’t think that they can get too much with O’neal… maybe cap relief by having the Knicks trade marbury and a young guy.
“The Knicks’ problem right now is that other than Lee, they don’t have players most teams would love to have on their roster.”
I believe that is temporary. Isiah the coach has decreased everyone’s value starting with Eddy and Balkman. Nate has value and makes peanuts. The new coach has to increase their value by maximizing their strengths. Listen, the Utah Jazz gave a first round pick for Kyle Korver. It is about having the right fit. Even Jamal if used correctly as a 6th man could possibly be a benefit for a team that needs offense.
– Fair enough on Red Auerbach… can’t arue with that one… of course he is only the best executive of all-time…
– we completely disagree about the Pacers. Time will tell. Mired in mediocrity is the worst roster. Besides Granger NO ONE has an upside. Dunleavy has been a pleasant surprise, but it remains to be seen if he will be more than a decent scorer on a bad team…
Davonn, good to hear from you and thanks for posting. Disagreement is always fine around here. Now onto business.
“Walsh deserves everything he got at the conference. He was treated with respect because he has earned it.â€
No one is suggesting that Walsh not be treated with respect. EVERYONE should be treated with respect. We are talking about a media contingent DOING ITS JOB! To not even BROACH THE SUBJECT of Indiana’s demise the last 5 years and where his personal responsibility lies is journalistic malpractice. Where are all of the articles educating readers about how a great thing was destroyed by bad management? Journalists should treat him with respect, but not at the expense of giving an honest and objective appraisal of his overseeing a DISASTROUS executive performance. We all agree that Walsh is a great stand-up guy, but would Roger Ebert give a glowing review of an actor’s performance because he was a great guy? …and herein lies the ACCEPTED unprofessionalism and routine open biases of sports media…
“This is the reason why Curry will be traded and Zach will be kept…..especially if we can get O’neal from Indiana for Marbury. Think about that trade and tell me it doesn’t make sense for both teams.â€
If Curry gets traded over Zach, it will be for one reason only: his contract is much more tradeable. Period. Actually, I believe that O’neal would be the perfect complement for CURRY. He would cover Curry’s weaknesses instead of duplicate them like Zach. Curry would shine next to Oneal. And I really believe the Oneal trade can happen. We’ll save Indiana 20M for the following year and maybe toss in a young guy.
Peace and blessings…
…Steady, shame on them indeed…
“To not even BROACH THE SUBJECT of Indiana’s demise the last 5 years and where his personal responsibility lies is journalistic malpractice. Where are all of the articles educating readers about how a great thing was destroyed by bad management?”
How was the Pacers destroyed by bad management? Why would they bring it up at the press conference? When did Bird go to the Pacers? He was signed in the offseason of 2003. Right before the start of the season they traded Al Harrington (per his request) to Atlanta for Stephen Jackson. They started as the best team in the East until the Brawl in Detroit. That season was supposed to go to waste but they actually went to the playoffs (13th time in 14 years). They year after that was the year Artest started the whole “trade me” stuff. He disrupted the team so Walsh granted his request. Jermaine missed 2 months that season due to a torn left groin. However, even with all that going on…they made the playoffs AGAIN for the 14th time in 15 years. The year after that was when Jackson was poppin shots in the parking lot and that led to him being traded. The public demanded he be traded (since he was also a major party in the Detroit brawl.) They probably didn’t want to deal him but they had to. Ever since then the team has gone downhill. How many games has Jermaine this year? All these things are out of the managements control my friend. Nobody could’ve done a better job with the set of events in Indiana for the last few years. Now we don’t know if Walsh or Bird was pulling those trades but we do know that before Bird got there when it was only Walsh….they were always elite.
Think about what the team was before Bird was there. They were in the Finals and they were a fixture in the playoffs and most times Eastern Conference Finals. I’m sure you remember those battles with Jordan and Miller or Scottie and Jalen. Classic stuff indeed.
Walsh is exactly what we need and I’m glad we have him. Why would the media go hard at him when he is changing the policy that will allow them much more access to the team? Doesn’t make sense to me.
Great move by Dolan in stepping back and letting a basketball great handle everything. People keep mentioning his age like he’ll be bringing the ball up the court LOL. He’s 67 not 77….BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
“Actually, I believe that O’neal would be the perfect complement for CURRY. He would cover Curry’s weaknesses instead of duplicate them like Zach. Curry would shine next to Oneal.” Why do you think so MODI? Curry can only play one way…down low!! He doesn’t rebound (did we forget already) and all he can do is score. We’re not talking about 30 a night…he’s good for 20 and 4 a night. The 4 rebounds is if we’re lucky (you know I ain’t lying MODI). Zach on the other hand is a guaranteed double double. Whether it’s with Curry, Jermaine or whoever…Zach will get 20 and 10. Jermaine will also cover Zachs weakness (defense).
Curry is not what we want in any shape, form or fashion. He has no heart and he’ll never understand what it takes to make a great center.
You tell ‘im, DOJ
MODI, don’t figure me for a big Pacers fan, I’m just sayin I don’t believe they’re in dire straights. They missed their best player for too long this season. They have him and not only are they in the playoffs, they’re pushin everybody except Boston and Detroit.
They’ve had a long run of excellence. Can’t last forever, but they haven’t exactly fallen down a drain either. Yet. You’re right tho, time (and this critical off-season) will tell.
The Press is a funny beast sometimes. A guy with Donnie’s background I can see them giving him a pass for a while (considering the guy he’s replacing). But I’ve seen the build-em-up-to-tear-em-down game too many times before to believe it’s going to be a permanent attitude.
First apparent slip and they’ll be on him like terriers with all the stuff that you claim here and more (of course, they’ll be leading with the age angle first).
Even HRC with all her baggage got a free ride up until a couple months ago.
It’s how they make their money: Heroes vs Villains. Just give it time. It’s as inevitable as rain.
As long as we keep losing and secure a top 2 pick….I’m happy!!!
Can’t you just see Rose in the orange and blue?
This pick will help Walsh a bunch in his pursuit of happiness at the Garden.
A Rose In The Garden.
Davonn,
“Think about what the team was before Bird was there.”
Know one is questioning Walsh’s job pre- 2003. He deserves all the accolades he gets.
“Nobody could’ve done a better job with the set of events in Indiana for the last few years.”
– They traded Artest for Peja and then let Peja walk. (or more accurately were praised for their “shrewdness” for obtaining a trade exception for Peja.) Kidd forced NJ’s hand, yet the Nets still walked away with Devin Harris, Diop, and two #1 picks. I’m sure that Rod Thorn and 28 other GM’s would have gotten more than NOTHING for Ron Artest.
– They used that Peja “trade exception” and what would be the 11th pick for Harrington only to ship him off in the “Dunmurphy” trade. Did Harrington get into any club shootings or Palace brawls? Was Indiana’s hand forced? if harrinton was a bad fit with Oneal (as reported) shouldn’t pacers management already been aware of this more than anyone else before giving up the #1 pick? Wouldn’t the pacers more than any other team know EXACTLY what kind of fit Harrington would be?
– Are you suggesting that another GM could not have obtained a better package than “Dunleavy/Murphy/Diougu” for both Harrington and Stephen Jackson?
– As I wrote in the article, IndyStar writer Bob Kravitz stated: “after The Brawl, Walsh stepped back up as a major front-office presence. For the next few years, Walsh was primarily responsible for tradesâ€.
“Why would the media go hard at Walsh when he is changing the policy that will allow them much more access to the team? Doesn’t make sense to me.”
We are not talking about “going hard”. We are talking about going at all? Where are the newspaper articles talking about the last 5 years? Again, it is about media responsibility to educate its readers. EVEN IF YOU LOVE THE WALSH SELECTION, we should question a media so blatantly biased as to forget the last 5 years. Perhaps Isiah will be up for a new gig and they could end their commentary at the end of his Pacers tenure as coach…
– I’ll pass on the Curry-Zach debate today– as it has been exhausted at KnicksDefense… Maybe in an upcoming article… but suffice to say that African has represented my position well…
– Bottom line: I actually agree with you that Walsh is the perfect selection, but for entirely different reasons. He is excellent and beloved by the media which will give him the necessary room and patience to do his job. Those media qualifications are the most important item a new GM can bring to the table. making the knicks better will be much easier…
Think about why Jermaine O’Neal is always injured.
Is he carrying too big a burden in Indiana?
Imagine what he’s saying right now.
“First, I was playing with Artest and Stephen Jackson and I was banged up. Now, you got Murphy and Dunleavy for me to bang with?”
Who’s doing all the heavy lifting when O’Neal is healthy?
Yes, Dunleavy can ease some of the scoring burden by doing work on the perimeter and Murphy can work in and close around the paint, but those are two big downgrades, still. Had Thomas had another year with the younger versions of Artest, O’Neal and Jackson instead of replacing him with Carlisle, maybe the whole “Malice at the Palace” doesn’t happen.
I could be wrong. But even if Dunleavy and Murphy are nicer guys on the court, Jackson and Artest are much more productive. What that young and knuckle-domed Pacers team needed most was stability.
Maybe that coaching switch was the crack in the foundation that ruined the whole thing.
Folly,
“It’s how they make their money: Heroes vs Villains. Just give it time. It’s as inevitable as rain.”
Isiah will be the permanent villain in this one is my guess. Walsh is a made man. It wasn’t until the 37th lineup and Jackie Butler logging heavy 4th quarter minutes that one bad word was uttered about Larry Brown. Walsh will REALLY have to mess up to be criticized. If he gets 20 cents on the dollar for a trade, it will be Isiah’s fault. Luckily, Walsh seems like he may have learned from the artest and “Dunmurphy” trades about rash decisions…
DVJ, Rose will change EVERYTHING… the other missing pieces (perimeter shooting; a defensive #4 are easier to obtain in trades…
BARF, I agree with you about the coaching switch as a bad move long-term. Artest stated he wanted out because of Carlisle more than anything… if i have a coach that can deal with Artest and is loved by Jermaine O’neal, then i am keeping him… don’t get me wrong, Carlisle is a great coach but he is one of those “wear on you” guys that probably has a three year window for success anywhere. He is also a questionable playoff coach as he is stubborn about adjustments
“– They traded Artest for Peja and then let Peja walk. (or more accurately were praised for their “shrewdness†for obtaining a trade exception for Peja.) Kidd forced NJ’s hand, yet the Nets still walked away with Devin Harris, Diop, and two #1 picks. I’m sure that Rod Thorn and 28 other GM’s would have gotten more than NOTHING for Ron Artest.”
I see what you mean but let’s be real. First of all you can’t compare trading Peja with trading Kidd. Come on MODI..you should know better than that. Are you saying Peja should’ve netted that much in a trade? They got a VERY VERY nice trade exception for Peja. As for Artest…let’s see what the Kings get for him. There’s a reason why teams get nothing for Ron…it’s because he’s a head case with a significant amount of talent. In other words..you can’t trade him for scrubs because he’s to good a player….you can’t trade a player as good asa him because you don’t know when Ron will snap and get suspended again. The other GM’s say “why give up a good player for another good player that might disrupt the chemistry of the team?”
“They used that Peja “trade exception†and what would be the 11th pick for Harrington only to ship him off in the “Dunmurphy†trade. Did Harrington get into any club shootings or Palace brawls? Was Indiana’s hand forced?”
No disrespect intended MODI but if you would’ve read my post more carefully, you would’ve seen where I stated Harrington requested to be traded. He did it in a very pubic way as well. It’s real funny how all these players (Artest, Harrington and now O’neal) have all requested to be traded AFTER BIRD CAME ABOARD. Just pointing out some observations here my friend.
“if harrinton was a bad fit with Oneal (as reported) shouldn’t pacers management already been aware of this more than anyone else before giving up the #1 pick? Wouldn’t the pacers more than any other team know EXACTLY what kind of fit Harrington would be?”
If Zach was a bad fit with Curry (as reported) shouldn’t Knicks management already been aware of this more than anyone else before giving up a talanted young forward? Wouldn’t the Knicks more than any other team know EXACTLY what kind of fit Zach would be?”
My point here MODI is that you can say that about any team that’s made a move and it’s turned out bad or not as the team thought and hoped it would.
“– Are you suggesting that another GM could not have obtained a better package than “Dunleavy/Murphy/Diougu†for both Harrington and Stephen Jackson?”
I don’t know but I do know that Walsh was the one who got Jackson and Harrington. I also know Larry Bird loves those white boy players like Dunleavy and Murphy. Now we don’t know who made that deal but if you look at Walsh’s moves prior to that….it doesn’t look like a Walsh move. Please don’t say Peja was a Walsh move and Peja is the same as DunMurphy because he’s not. Peja is way better than them. By the way…the player you seem to be bashing dropped 30 something on us at the Garden this year. I forget if it was Murphy or Dunleavy but one of them killed us. He might’ve dropped 30 again on us in Indiana after that. I have to check that.
“As I wrote in the article, IndyStar writer Bob Kravitz stated: “after The Brawl, Walsh stepped back up as a major front-office presence. For the next few years, Walsh was primarily responsible for tradesâ€.”
What was written before the beginning of that quote? Was it…..an inside source reports that after the brawl, Walsh stepped back up……………” I’m just asking. We get that all the time here in NY. More than likely…that came from a source…then again I could be wrong. If you could…please post the entire sentence to prove me wrong.
“we should question a media so blatantly biased as to forget the last 5 years.”
Why MODI? Your acting like Walsh had sole control of the franchise. Your acting like Larry legend just stepped back and let Walsh make all the choices. Here Walsh is in control by himself. The media will not attack Walsh…….YET!!
It may happen and it may not…depends on what Walsh does.
Why would the media question what happened the last 5 years in Indiana when their fighting for a playoff spot and the team he’s taking over is fighting for the #1 pick.
Come on fellas…this is a new beginning.
If we get Rose we will be elite in 2 years.
Davonn,
“They got a VERY VERY nice trade exception for Peja.”
They used that VERY VERY NICE trade exception to package with a #1 pick for Harrington who they shipped months later in the DunMurphy debacle. In actuality, that trade exception was not nice at all. They would have been better off not using it and drafting Acie Law or Thaddeus Young (picks #11 and #12) with that pick.
– Artest is about to be a free agent. If he wasn’t then he would have gotten strong feelers. We agree that you can’t get equal value for Artest, but I repeat. THEY GOT NOTHING. The Artest-Peja trade, in and of itself, was a good one, but there is know way that you make that trade unless you KNOW that you can sign Peja. GMs cover for this all-the-time. That is what made it a flop.
– Here is the full kravitz article on Walsh/Bird:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080325/SPORTS15/803250349/1034/SPORTS15
– It is possible that I am failing to commincate my main point which is that the press conference (and articles) COULD have shined more clarity on Walsh/Bird question, but deliberately chose not to. Again, no one is suggesting an “attack”. But no inquiry? I mean c’mon? Why does a media even exist? this is 3rd grade stuff…
– Davonn, when it comes to judging Knicks vs. Indiana you are looking at “the team” and I am looking at “the roster”. And IMO, the Knicks have a better roster for future potential. An example would be the Seattle Supersonics. They have a horrible team today, but with Durant and Jeff Green they have one of the best rosters a new GM could take over.
– I really don’t care how well a team is built to exit the 1st round for the next 5 years. That kind of definition of “success” is meaningless to me — and that is the best-case-scenario of the indiana pacers right now. The only definition of success to me is “future ability to contend for a championship” — which is all you can ask a GM. I believe that the Knicks roster is closer to that goal than Indy… especially if they land Derrick Rose… as you readily agree!!!
Just found an S.I. article that agrees with your assessment of the sitch, MODI.
Last night,
I saw chemistry within the young Knick team that
beat Orlando. It also hurt to see the “Flashes”
of what may have been a very good team this year
playing that way with nothing to lose but a ping pong ball!
Walsh will benefit from what Zeke has put together the last 3
years. I wonder if the NY media would treat someone like
Paul Silas or Butch Beard the same way if they we brought in instead of Walsh? I believe Walsh could be the Star
and lead character in the movie ” Casino 2 ” directed by David Stern!
Correction ….WERE brought in,
And BTW…the Magic are in the playoffs with 5 games left!
To leave Howard, Nelson, and Turgolu in the game down by 10
with less than a minute remaining??????? A dangerous move for
one of them to get injured in a meaningless game for them!
What’s up with that? Were the Knicks not playing by the
Script handed them? I don’t understand that move by the Magic????????
MODI- There is NO WAY with better coaching are we getting more out of Crawford and Curry. Those two need to GO! I pray to God they both opt out of their contracts at the end of next season. It would be addition by subtraction as far as I am concerned. I know MissQ-Rich won’t opt out and neither will Jerome James, but losing the aforementioned 2 would leave me ECSTATIC.
I might be the only guy who doesn’t see star quality in Rose. He is fast and strong, but I don’t see him as the next Chris Paul or Deron Williams. People are talking about him much like they do Ason Kidd and I have never been enamored by that type of point guard. Ason might be the most overrated point guard of this era. This draft has me extremely nervous.
I suppose you’ve seen this eulogy for zeke over at NY Magazine? Here comes the pile-on.
MODI do you think you could get a dialog going with one of these MSM guys (say Hahn)? An e-mail debate?
My fellow Knick fans better get this notion that Eddy Curry is a starting center on a playoff team. That simply isn’t the case. The man is a porous defender who doesn’t do anything other than take up space on defense. He is out of shape. He is downright AWFUL. Isiah blew it here. He completely wrecked the chemistry of this squad. It’s a shame he let his ego get the best of him in NY.
Folly, thanks for the links. Yeah, I guess that Mannix and I agree on everything about Indiana except whether they are a worse situation than the Knicks. As for the New Yorker article… it was a pile-on hitjob of epic proportions… he definitely did his research and left no negative stone unturned… it was very nicely written though, I gotta give him that much… how he can do such detailed research, but not get into the Layden roster he took over straight wrong… but why mess up a great villain narrative… …about Hahn, that is a good question… you know I like Hahn and Howard Beck even more… agree or disagree… I find them to be fair or at least striving for fairness… maybe, I could request an interview…
Peaceman, it truly boggles the mind how Isiah was starting Q all year — inexplicable…
Jimmy, I’ve always maintained that Jamal could be an excellent 6th man if he was left in when hot, and pulled when not… As for Curry, it was clear that he had a much better year last year when he was the only low post option. I would just like to see him paired up once agant one of those dirty work defenders at the 4.
My 2 cents:
Isaiah has not gotten a fair shake from the MSM. That being said given the results the past 2 seasons Dolan had to bring in new blood.
Walsh is probably about as good a basketball guy that Dolan could get. Has good knowledge and has had success in the league. The past 3-4 years at Indiana have been horrible, however, and there is no sugar coating that fact. The MSM will give him ample time to try to bring the Knicks back, and from my view he starting out with decent talent, and a decent salary and contract position. Marbury’s contract is the only obviously bad one, and it runs off at the end of next year. Just the fact that the MSM will give him (and Dolan) breathing room makes his selection a good one.
If Walsh begins by trading for O’Neal or anyone else on the Pacers (save for Danny Granger) my view will change quickly. We don’t want a replay of Checkettes and Layden stocking the Knicks with old and oft injured Utah Jazz leftovers. With Marbury they are better off eating his last year and having the cap space for 2010.
2008-9: you get a top 5 or 6 pick in a very good draft year. Perhaps if you can trade Randolph that will help. Wes Chandler will be able to contribute. D Lee, n8 and Balk should be better. Crawford ok, Curry perhaps returns to old self if Zach is gone.
2009/10: with Marbury coming off, you can sign a max free agent. Also Richardson and james would have trade vale given their $16MM combined that would be in their last year. If you did a good job with the 2008-9 draft this team should be a playoff team.
2010/11: tons of cap room now. must decide about DLee, N8 in terms of resigning. Can potentialy sign another max free agent
Given the prospects for the next 3 years. Walsh really just has to make 3 or 4 critical decisions to ensure the Knicks get back to prominance. (he has Isaiah to thank for that)
1. this years draft
2. 2009 free agent
3. 2010 free agent
4. does he resign DLee, N8 and perhaps Balkman.
BTW Wes Chandler is a ball player!
OOO, thanks for the insightful post
– About O’neal. He only has two years left on his contract (at 44M). If you trade Marbury for O’neal, the Knicks would still have have cap space by 2010. It would be desoirable for the Pacers to save 20M, but the Knicks can afford it without longterm inplications. Now lets dream and say Lebron wants to come to the Knicks. Now you have the option to sign him, and depending on his performance RESIGN ONEAL afterwards. Since you can go over the cap as much as you like for your own free agent. No harm, no foul.
– Trading Randolph is a must IMO. He stunts everyone’s growth.
– 2010 free agency is all that matters because Lebron/Wade/Bosh maximize the still very slim odds of getting lucky. They all can sign one year extentions as well which may put 2011 into play — a much more maneuverable year for the Knicks. Otherwise free agency is not only meaningless, but often backfires (see Ben Wallace). If you are going to play lotto it must specifically targeted for 2010/2011.
– We agree that Wes Chandler is a great ball player. I often enjoyed seen Dan Fouts choose between him Kellen Winslow and Charlie Joiner. One of the best receiving crew in history
modi,
thanks for the correction – sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain or maybe it was just a senior moment
i must say, I really dislike trading marbury for O’neal. From a risk reward standpoint, O’neal has been injury prone and there is probably at least a 25% chance that this would continue. If knicks just eat Marbury then they can sign a free agent (most likely via sign and trade for Marbury). Elton Brand would be an example of a straight out free-agent, while Joe Johnson or TMac could be available via sign and trade next year.
Also, I don’t think 2010 Lebron is realistic, and he is the only one I would delay a 2009 move for.
OOO,
1) even if they eat Marbury and Rose, they will not be under in 2009. Check out hoopshype http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Q and jerome come off the books the following year. But even if the Knicks WERE under in 2009 I’d never sign anyone because that would nullify any free-agency opportunity for 2010 the year three franchise changers potentially become available.
2) free agency is an TERRIBLE strategy to build a team because 90% of the time great players never actually make it to free agency. When teams know they might lose a great player they usually trade them (see Garnett, Iverson, Marion, etc.) I explain this in detail in “The Salary Cap Myth” http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131 …any team can benefit from a “sign and trade” which also reduces free agency’s impact…
3) 2010 is the free agency exception because three marquee names are on the books the same year (Lebron, Wade, Bosh) while in the midst of their prime. Chance are that all are signed and never become free agents. HOWEVER, Lebron is the wildcard that breaks conventional thinking. The man’s main goal is to become a billionaire and no other place can make him money like NYC. Even if he signs a lower contract with the Knicks than Cavs, he would more than make up for it in endorsements. Lebron knows this, so for 2010 only it may be worth playing lotto.
MODI- Unless we get EXTREMELY lucky, like we did in the early 90′s finding Anthony Mason and John Starks on the waiver wire, we BETTER get under the cap. Mason and Starks turned into 6th men of the year and All-Stars and they cost us nothing. We need that type of luck, because we need some stars on this team. Marbury is the only one close to that level. We need about 3 or 4 of these type of players and I’m all for doing ANYTHING to get us in a position to possibly get a superstar. If it happens, GREAT! If it doesn’t, we’re going to suck. It’s that simple.
Jimmy — getting a superstar by getting under the cap is near impossible. In the last 11 years only 9 all-stars and merely two SUPERSTARS (Shaq and Nash) were obtained by getting under the cap — and Nash was only availbale because Cuban passed on him. So Shaq is the only “max player” obtained through getting under the cap — EVER. Evertone else is through the draft and trades. However, the only reason I think we target 2010 is because of Lebron’s specific situation and his ambition to become the first billionaire… NYC can help him…
[...] since the media has been pretty quiet on what to do, other than having some amnesia regarding Donnie Walsh (in the hopes of taking back some media access from James Dolan’s harsh policies), the [...]
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[...] championship contending Indiana Pacer’s team. That team’s demise was accompanied by a “free ride for Donnie Walsh”. Praise Donnie for the moves, but let’s not fall for the okey [...]
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