“Fire Isiah”: Has the Media Gone Too Far?
"Knicks win [last night’s blowout of Cleveland] in most convincing, energetic fashion and mainstream sports media focus is on “fans” holding “Fire Isiah” signs. I agree with Jay Bee that the boobirds and “Fire Isiah” crowd are primarily the creation of the mainstream media tabloid hacks who despise both Zeke and Dolan for restricting their access to the team. In the interview following last night’s game, D. Lee said that he viewed the win against Cleveland as a commited team effort, reflecting high intensity and pure determination to prevail. Lee encouraged the fans to “stay positive” — something many of us who contribute to this blog have been saying for some time." – Knick Fan "Prince" on KnickDefenders Website
The above quote represents another Knick fan’s point of view that won’t be found in your local or national newspaper. It simply doesn’t fit the mass hysteria that has become the phenomena presently known as "Fire Isiah". And make no mistake, it is nothing short of mass hysteria. This has gone far beyond chanting fans at Knick games. Don’t believe me? New York tabloid journalists and pundits on Around the Horn have asked for David Stern to intervene on the Knicks coaching situation. ESPN, along with every other media outlet, reported yesterday’s mini-protest outside of Madison Square Garden demanding Isiah’s removal. There was a giant "Pink Slip" and everything. Not enough for you? Apparently, there is also a bigger civl rights issue at stake here as activist Norman Siegel says: "The Knicks are trampling on what New York is all about. We’re outspoken, and we’re zany at times, but principles and values of free speech should be adopted." Is Siegal referring to language in "The Patriot Act"? Nope. He is referring to a fan having his "Fire Isiah" sign removed at a game. I must have missed that constitutional clause that allowed for signs in private venues. Perhaps, if I don’t like my food at a restaurant tonite I can hold up a sign that says: "The Chef Sucks" and call Siegal if they violate my rights by taking it away. But I digress.
Mass protest? Commisioner Intervention? First ammendment rights? Wow, if our media covered our national policy with the same vigor, George Bush would have been impeached many years ago! So how did we get here? Surely there are many fans who want Isiah fired for legitimate reasons. I, myself, just wrote yesterday how much I have been truly dissappointed with Isiah’s coaching performance (not GM) . But there is certainly a difference between wanting your coach fired, and pretending that we’re marching back in Selma, Alabama. Despite pre-season expectations as conference-contenders, The Heat and The Bulls have had a similar start to the Knicks this year, but will get plenty of time to work the kinks out. So, is the Knicks reaction simply and purely the "will of the people"? Not quite. Here is an article from today’s New York Daily News:
"A slew of fed-up Knicks fans marched into Madison Square Garden on Wednesday night brandishing "FIRE ISIAH!" signs from the Daily News. Although the Knicks managed to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers 108-90, the victory clearly didn’t change many minds about wanting coach Isiah Thomas to go. …’You guys at The [Daily] News motivated us to come here and let the owners know what we think,’ said hotel concierge David Sergi, 22, of Holbrook, L.I. …The News printed the [Fire Isiah] poster as a holiday gift to frustrated Knicks fans after fellow devotee Jason Silverstein was tossed from Monday night’s loss to the Pacers when he held up his own makeshift sign."
The "Fire Isiah" posters came with The New York Daily News instructions to bring them to the next Knicks blowout loss. This wasn’t the first time that The Daily News has been offering "motivation". Along with their partners-in-crime at "The New York Post" they have been the "fire Isiah" ring leaders for the last four years. The back page headlines are atrocious, they regularly speak for and INSTRUCT the fans, and they rarely if ever offer a dissenting point of view in any of their articles. (For example, perhaps some fans might not take to the streets if the media ever informed them that when compared to other teams in NBA history the December 2003 roster that Thomas inherited is AT MINIMUM a 5-year turnaround project.). And even worse, as the opening quote alluded to, there have been continual claims that the tabloids are also out for revenge because they are unhappy with The Knicks and James Dolan’s media policy. Surely many fans in Chicago have expressed that they want Scott Skiles dismissed, but their local newspapers might be less apt to have a back page [NY Post] that says: "This Turkey’s Gotta Go" to celebrate goodwill, peace, and harmony over the Thanksgiving holdays.
And before we get all nostalgic about the Knicks of yesteryear let’s remember that this is the same local media that ran true warrior Patrick Ewing out of town and wrote the headline "Good Riddance" [NY Post] on the day that he was traded. This is the same media that had fans believing that Ewing was more of a detriment than an asset to the Knicks in the late ’90s. And this is the same media that convinced fans that two years ago AROD was having a terrible year despite batting .290 with 35 Hrs and 121 RBIs. So, is the media responsible for a Knick fan wanting Isiah to be fired. Of course not. Isiah will have to take some responsibility for helping the Knicks lose those games. However, only the media can take responsibility for helping Knick fans lose their minds.
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Great Post Modi,
Miami, with Wade and Shaq is worse than the Knicks. We beat the Nets convincingly and lost miserably to Indiana and routed Cavs. I don’t thin the problem is with the coaching.
Even if the Knicks find their winning ways, the media will still find a reason why IT should be fired; sexual harassment, salary cap, etc. It is up to the avid fans to read in-between the lines.
Let’s Go Knicks.
December 20th, 2007 at 2:05 pmAmen. Happily, Isiah yesterday made reference to a silent but large group of people who support him. I’m sure that statement will get ridiculed, but it’s likely true.
December 20th, 2007 at 2:10 pmKeep making your points Modi, and I’ll keep spreading the gospel wherever I go.
December 20th, 2007 at 2:21 pmWell written as always, Modi. Amen!
December 20th, 2007 at 3:01 pmMODI,
Perhaps you should also email the MSG PR dept, to let Zeke know that there are a lot of us that are not silent, and we are a mass of support!
Keep on telling the truth!
December 20th, 2007 at 3:45 pmThanks fellas. Jazz, the media might find a reason, but they should be given as few as possible.
December 20th, 2007 at 3:46 pmPeace, you might be onto something. the NY post ran a video of the demonstration basically as a promo for their website. perhaps we need to come with a counterpunch
December 20th, 2007 at 3:51 pmMODI,
I think the ire of the media is misguided. They should rather focus on MSG not the Knicks. Blowing up the Knicks will not help the fans, they claim to be helping. That will be another 3/4 years of agony. In the meantime MSG will not be affected, Isiah will still get his money even if he is fired. The players have their contracts set.
This team is good as is although it can be great with one or two additions. What is needed is mental toughness and a desire to be the best or with the best. The mental state of the players is a reflection of their age. I think apart from Malik, James and Marbury, all the players are either 25 years old or below. Some of them came straight from High School. It will take them about a year or 2 more to learn how to ignore the media.
Secondly it will be difficult to give them fewer reasons. Even when they do they will manufacture some. Like the story about Curry guaranteeing a win when he didn’t. Unless, you are advocating that the press be barred from the Knicks training facility. LOL
December 20th, 2007 at 4:18 pmWhen I say give them fewer reasons, i mean either WIN or lose while giving 100%. Last year when they lost, at least they gave 100%. Sure the media was stiil horrible, but just not quite this bad. Now it seems like Isiah’s job rides on every single game. Now I’ve been critical of Thomas-the-coach my damn self, but I really don’t know how anybody can work under these conditions!
December 20th, 2007 at 4:42 pmWhat type of additions do the Knicks need to make? Would you want to add a true backup point and another big? A classic 4 or 5? If so, what talent level would you be looking for? Defensive prowess for both additions or just 1? Is it more important that the big have a defensive focus or will it suffice with the 1? What players around the league fit the mold?
December 20th, 2007 at 4:48 pmThat question is really for anyone. It’s not MODI specific.
December 20th, 2007 at 4:48 pmModi,
Why are Americans willing to go on TV to be insulted and put down on such shows as American Idol. Americans crave publicity. The (MSM) has always understood Americans’ insatiable appetite for fame. Professional sports leagues such as NFL & MLB ask the networks not to show the fan or fans that run on the field during their games, because it will only encourage others to do the same. In other words, DO NOT ALLOW THE FANS TO BECOME THE STORY.
The MSM was aware that by doing a sports story on the guy in Boston that threw his Knicks’ jersey, releasing the woman’s name that said Isiah criticised the home crowd, and asking the person that was removed from the stands to come forward. If you give a fan his 15 minutes of fame for demeaning the Knicks, then certaintly others will participate in a MSM-sponsored events geared to demean Isiah & Dolan. The MSM has switched from manipulating the sport’s fan mind to controlling their actions. Dolan understands the game and the MSM’s overall objective to change his media policy, demean Isiah, and regain control in the professional team and MSM relationship. It is easy to understand why the MSM is losing
December 20th, 2007 at 4:59 pmmarket share to the internet.
For me, Artest is available (he has an opt out and (Balkman + a Knick 2 guard might do it) and I would love to get him more because of his D than his O. The guy could even guard a center he is so good. The press would have a field day with the whle “head case” thing, but I could care less. They said the same shit about Sprewell, and Knick fans loved spree. In NY you can choke your coach, beat your wife, and sell crack to little kids but all will be forgiven if you play hard on Game night! OTOH, you can be Gandhi, MLK, and Mother Teresa all rolled up into one, but if you go to the hoop like Charles Smith, there will be hell to pay. It may be twisted, but it is what it is. …but I digress.
I think that Knick fans have to acknowledge that the Zach-Eddy experiment just won’t work because the interior & perimeter D suffers too much — something that critics rightly predicted. Curry is a more tradeable asset with a 9M contract. I might be dreaming. but Id love to see him in a package (w/2 young guys) for someone like a Jermaine Oneal (who might have an opt out coming up). If not, I think that it is imperative to get a defensive shot-blocking big man in return. Shotblocking is an absolute must.
The other big need is a lights-out perimeter shooter to spread the floor. Not an all-star or anything. Someone like a Jason Kapono would have been valuable if signed. BTW, his loss has really hurt Miami.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:12 pmStatesman, as always excellent analysis.
If I were Dolan, I would keep the same exact stance with the tabloids. It’s not like they were exactly fair with the Knicks before Dolan came along…
December 20th, 2007 at 5:16 pm“In NY you can choke your coach, beat your wife, and sell crack to little kids but all will be forgiven if you play hard on Game night! OTOH, you can be Gandhi, MLK, and Mother Teresa all rolled up into one, but if you go to the hoop like Charles Smith, there will be hell to pay. It may be twisted, but it is what it is. …but I digress.”
That’s because the average is buying a drink for the badass after a great came…and that same New Yorker is threatening to beat the crap out of the soft guy in the same bar. We watch the game and live life the way we want the game to be played.
As it pertains to football, that’s why I’ve always been a Steeler fan. They have a New York style of play - much more so than the Giants or Jets. Both of those teams could be from Florida. During the 26 year drought between Steeler SBs, I never thought for a moment about drifting to Joisey in Blue or Green.
The Knicks don’t have a New York personality or a Detroit personality or a Chicago (Isiah) personality. They’re an odd mix in search of themselves. I agree the lineup needs some re-tuning. If Chuck Daly could bring the Microwave off the bench and start Rodman, there is no good reason why Renaldo can’t play and Crawford and/or Q come in with the 2nd unit.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:30 pmI meant to say “the average New Yawkah is buying.”
December 20th, 2007 at 5:31 pm“The Knicks don’t have a New York personality or a Detroit personality or a Chicago (Isiah) personality. They’re an odd mix in search of themselves. I agree the lineup needs some re-tuning. If Chuck Daly could bring the Microwave off the bench and start Rodman, there is no good reason why Renaldo can’t play and Crawford and/or Q come in with the 2nd unit.”
Agreed. Detroit always has a team in the mold of the Knicks. As I see it, the Knicks really only have 3 players that fit the pure-heart 1990’s mold: they are Balkman, Lee, and Fred Jones… unfortunately they all are lacking in the skill areas…
December 20th, 2007 at 5:57 pmI don’t know. Some of my favorite Knick teams were the run and gun Pitino teams of the late ’80s. I would happily settle for that style if it could be done well enough.
December 20th, 2007 at 7:00 pmMODI, I understand that you want to blame media for all this Isiah’s debacle that matches nothing in the sports history. Don’t you think that score on the basketball game does not depend on media but on the players. Isiah is criticizing players for not playing strong, and those are the same losers-players he brought them in, as a dumps from another team. If you compare results, your whole analysis fails because team that Isiah got from Layden made the playoff on the first year, with the addition of Cancerbury. Isiah says about team not having heart. Does that mean that Larry Brown was completely right after two months of coaching this group of overpaid primadonas?
December 20th, 2007 at 7:30 pm“your whole analysis fails because team that Isiah got from Layden made the playoff on the first year”
nenad, I don’t think that you are understanding my analysis. My analysis is not how good the team he took over was in 2003. my analysis is on that team’s future potential. Vets like Allan Houston (b4 knee injury), Keith Van Horn, & Kurt Thomas were good enough in 2003 to eke into the playoffs, but it was a horrendous roster to take over with 4 years hindsight because of their age, injuries, and lack of tradeability. In contrast, a much worse team in 2003 like the Atlanta Hawks was a much better roster to inherit as they had trade chips (at the time) like Nazr Mohammed, Shareef, & Theo Ratliff; and guys like Jason Terry, Stephen Jackson; and a young Boris Diaw. Atlanta had a foundation to trade or keep in 2003. The Knicks only trade bait on the roster was basically Kurt Thomas & Antonio McDyess coming off major surgery. I hope this clears things up on this point.
And no that is not true. I don’t want to blame the media for EVERYTHING. I can even understand those who wish for his dismissal. But unlike you, I separate Isiah the Gm with isiah the coach. HOWEVER, it has hit a point of mass hysteria that surpasses anything that I have ever seen. And that hysteria is fueled by the media more than anything. Having a different view on Isiah is like trying to be Saddam Husseins lawyer. You just won’t make it to trial. Now THAT is because of the crazy media.
Finally, Larry Brown did a horrible job and deserved to be fired by anyone who watched those games. This team is capable of delivering effort every night as was showcased last year. They may have lost, but they never stopped fighting last year. This year has been quite different. Isiah the COACH also deserves blame and I have already expressed why in detail right here: http://www.cosellout.com/?p=192.
In closing, it is possible for to think Isiah a bad coach, and even a bad GM, and still disapprove of the media’s one-sided tactics. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
December 20th, 2007 at 8:57 pm1) Isiah should step aside as coach for a lot of on AND off the court reasons (some of which are not his fault). But remain GM. It’s the right thing to do, and will finally allow the next coach to do something about…….
2) The failure of this Knick team boils down to one person: Marbury.
He was a cancer in Minnesota, a cancer in Phoenix, and a cancer now in NY. You can’t have your ‘quarterback’ be this toxic in the NBA. His once-in-a-generation-esque talent has blinded GMs from day one, and has obscured extremely serious personal issues (and possbily earnest mental problems). Isiah’s problem is that he can’t walk away from Marbury because ‘Starbury’ was the ‘big fish’ he landed shortly after taking the Knicks job.
As naive as it sounds, Marbury needs to be deactivated immediately. In all seriousness, he is probably mentally ill (especially compounded with the passing of his father), which is even worse than having a physical injury. He needs treatment. [For some reason mental ailments, depression, bipolar, etc are not given the same attention as a torn ACL]
Nate Robinson and gang are raw but they have talent, energy, and pride. Put ‘em on the floor already.
December 21st, 2007 at 4:20 amWex,
you nailed it! I couldn’t agree more!
December 21st, 2007 at 9:53 amWex,
No disrespect because, I mean, maybe you’re a psychiatrist or something… But to call a man “mentally ill”… Hmmm.
Unless you know him personally, and/or he’d scheduled an appointment at the clinic where you practice psychiatry, at which time you observed him, and you are now offering your professional opinion…
Other than those possibilities, I think what you’re saying is awfully presumptive, and borderline paternalistic, maybe even condescending.
I mean, a guy doesn’t have to behave just like you in order to be considered “normal” does he?
The man’s father has died. Maybe you can/could/did bounce back after such a thing, but people grieve differently. Give him a break.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:53 amI just did a post on this, LP, but I do think that there are signs that Marbury has been depressed for a while, before his father even passed away. While I think Wex’s comments were harsh and abrasive, he does bring up a good point: a player who is depressed should be treated the same way a player who is physically injured is. I’m glad Isiah and the Knicks organization are allowing Marbury to take leaves of absence as needed… this is a very tough situation for him I’m sure.
And I think back to situations like Eddie Griffin, and how maybe if people had been more helpful in diagnosing or treating his depression, he might still be alive today. Or maybe it wouldn’t have made a difference, or maybe his teams actually did all they could do to help him. I don’t know, but I do think there is a stigma attached to words like “depression”, and “mental illness”, and that it hurts players in those situations….
December 21st, 2007 at 1:05 pmLast Poet: In terms of tone you are probably right - perhaps a bit harsh. But the sentiment remains. I appreciate your comment. I am actually expressing (or trying to) empathy/sympathy for Marbury and trying to go beyond the catch-all, biased, ‘He’s Crazy’. And of course we can go on for days about his community work (Steve & Barry, etc).
But the fact remains, every team/environment he has been a part of has imploded (no coincidence) - and prior to his father’s death, his Knick teammates had lost all faith in him for reasons widely available online.
December 21st, 2007 at 1:25 pmWex, thanks for posting. In response to basketball stuff:
1) I have no problem with him stepping aside as coach and remaining GM. Another GM might “blow it up” and this team deserves an opportunity to play together and be coached right as I explained in previous article. however, let’s see if a miracle happens in the next week or so.
2)I have never bought the popular Marbury-the-cancer theory in history: Marbury was young and immature in Minny but after that he never had the people around him any year to go anywhere in the playoff. Marbury took that same team to the playoffs and lost to the spurs WITH Duncan. Marbury has been very unlucky. His departures in NJ and Phoenix were followed by the two best PGs of our generation (Kidd and Nash) PLUS the emergence of new young player (Kenyon Martin & Richard Jefferson on Nets) and (Amare Soudemire on Suns). Let’s also remember that Jason Kidd only won one playoff series his first 7 years in the league and that only happened because Tim Duncan sat out with an injury. Dallas also improved after Nash left because of circumstances that Nash should not be penalized for. None of those teams that Marbury played for SHOULD have won a playoff series.
3) Marbury in 2007: This is the first year since Minny that Marbury has the talent to lead his team. I cannot argue with the criticism about Marbury this year as the Game 5 benching fiasco may have cost the season. Marbury is a different man in 2007. While always a big community service guy the stuff he has done has been legendary the last couple of years which is why he is my favorite athlete in all of pro sports. He also supposedly became a born-again Christian in June, finally his whole entire family around him has been dropping like flies this year. In all of that, basketball may just not be as important as it used to be for him these days.
4) So yes, it looks like the Marbury signing has backfired although I will not rule an inspiring comeback out as Peaceman already knows. I believe that Jamal or Nate simply cannot handle the point longterm. I just don’t like the Knicks season being predicated on whether Jamal is hot or not today. The ball seems to move around the perimeter best when Marbury is in the game. Personally, I like Crawford as “the microwave” off the bench. I’m in the minority amongst Knick fans here. Maybe it is just wishful thinking on the part of this Knicks fan.
December 21st, 2007 at 2:52 pmNow in response to the other non-basketball stuff:
5) Mental illness? Depression? I have no idea. I’m no doctor, but I’ve been around it both professionally and personally within my family (my own father suffered from depression) and wouldn’t necessarily rule it out. The larger point about the stigma against athletes and mental illness is still one that definitely has merit. For example Mike Tyson HAS been diagnosed with mental illness, but it was rarely talked about. His trainers would take him off his medication (Zoloft I think)the week before the fight (including the famous Holyfield fight) so that he could be more agressive. This subject should have been given serious media attention at the time. This fact was further compounded when Chris benoit was being given the medical pass two weeks after killing his family. But I digress.
6) But let me say this: if Marbury is mentally ill, then I want to be mentally ill and want everyone else to be menatlly ill. Earlier this year Marbury said, “there are more important things in life than basketball”. Now this comment didn’t go over to too well with Knick fans, but is something wrong with him or is something wrong with us? He had massive community service days in Coney island this summer, pledged 4M dollars to city workers, and started a movement with his shoes? But the rest of us care more about basketball. In a maladjusted world you are only sane if you are maladjusted. Maybe we are the ones who are really crazy.
December 21st, 2007 at 2:56 pmMODI,
Please leave this post on for a few days! I believe
December 21st, 2007 at 4:16 pmthere are a lot more posts coming on this issue with many different angles that we haven’t touched base on yet!
We’ve just scratched the surface, in my humble opinion.
Thanks.
Peaceman, fair enough. It will stay until Monday morning. i may be doing some related follow-ups next week as well. You are right that we have barely scratched the surface here.
December 21st, 2007 at 4:31 pmModi
If you recall the article I referred to you awhile back in Esquire ‘The MEGAPHONE SYNDRONE,’ we are once again watching the Propoganda and Inuendo technique at work and being used on the unaware and misinformed. This process only works with the folks that thrive and find shelter and esteem through the Mob Mentality.
Critical Thinkers do not and will not be influenced by writers that can barely spell more less than tie two cohesive thoughts or contentions together. Moreless, insert factual pretext and content to support their abstrct and absurd assertions.
The purveyors of Truth, search long and wide to assemble intel, then review, and review, and review again, then think long and hard on subjects that interest them or effect their lives in the most substative way.
The folks that are lead and feed off the garbage that the unskilled and wicked use via the MEGAPHONE SYNDRONE, have relinguished their inalienable right to see Truth, but would rather be lead down the path by the BLIND, because it is to hard and takes much time and focus to search for Truth…Thereby we’ve coined the phrase, THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND…
Resdient Scholar continue your search for Truth…It will take you many wonderful places introduce you to worlds most Men never find, and they exist right there in their minds…God Bless Modi! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
December 21st, 2007 at 4:53 pmWex (and everyone)
Thanks for your reply.
Like I said, it’s all good, one luv, and all that.
I’m trying to be a “kinder, gentler” Poet myself (with mixed results)!
I think both you and SML are right to point out that possible mental illness among professional athletes should be taken very seriously. Could’ve saved Eddie Griffin’s life, might be saving Marbury’s right now.
I’m with Modi in that, in terms of straight hoops, I don’t necessarily think Marbury is a “cancer.” I think he’s a unique person in the same way that Kobe Bryant is unique to the NBA. Not that their backgrounds are the same - we all know that Kobe grew up cosmopolitan and middle class, while Steph grew up poor - but the way they relate to their peers and colleagues is… a lil different. Iverson seems to fall into that category, too, but again, for different reasons.
Steph seems to be like a lot of New York kids I know: a gruff exterior, but you put him in a position to help people and you find that he’s got a really big heart. Can’t say that about a lot of people, athletes or otherwise…
Anyway, keep up the good work, Modi. Wex, SML, and I have sort of gotten off track with this talk of Marbury. The point of your article is well taken: There have been a number of “legitimate,” high profile lynchings in the history of the United States. But a dozen uppity whitefolk with ignorant placards, and perhaps two dozen media denizens there to record it for posterity simply doesn’t qualify, in this case. Not that I’d like to see this turn into a real lynching, shid, I live here, too, and the police keep threatening to take away my gun…
December 21st, 2007 at 5:52 pmThe Knicks won’t make the playoffs this year! Thomas
was sneaky dealing with the media and dealing with Larry Brown, so he had Marbury do the dirty work, that ended up
getting Brown fired. Don’t worry, I’ll be watching Thomas and my Knicks, your knicks; Frank Isola, OCT 2006.
This is from Isola’s blog Nov 2006. You can see his hate for Zeke before the first game of last year. This kind of venom
also showed when he tried to post that Dave Lee was a Knick not because of Thomas but because of Brendan Surr’s relationship with Billy Donavan? Can you believe that?
Another Classic was Isola defending Karl keeping his starters in the last two minutes before last years brawl with Denver!
Only to later post that Thomas was trying to run up the score
on Miami when Crawford was zoneing and had 52 points, stateing
Thomas left Crawford in too long, when in fact Crawford came out of that game with 7 minutes left in the 4th!
Isola, Lawrence and the Grand Wizard lupica, Why is their mission in life to get Thomas fired? There must be some deep seed resentment or can’t face the fact
December 21st, 2007 at 6:33 pmthat a Blackman fired a White Hall of Fame Coach!
Did they spend a sentence on Hall of Fame coach Lenny Wilkins
when he was fired? Not even a New York minute!
The only illness Step- suffers from is”ME FIRST syndrome!” (on the court..that is)Clearly one of the most talented/gifted
December 21st, 2007 at 6:44 pmballers of our era..However talent alone can not denote passion– dedication–hardwork–unyielding practice…and most importantly experience.These ingredients are essential for Leadeship.
He has a wholesome prespective on life…Which make him that in his community. That communitive attidude has not lent itself to his team mates or his fans.His ego was crushed upon discovering he was not in the starting line-up…Whether fair or unfair..Not being able to properly access the reason or situation–carried him back to NY,away from his team,and ultimately what he calls home..So’ if apologies to your fans are not in order then what? He was quoted as being the best!! Which everyone is entitled to think and feel,But being the best sometimes does not always mean out playing your opponent..it is out thinking him, And at times yourself. He and HIS team will play better when the GM/Coach raise the expectations and make it clear to everybody.
Isiah’s narrative was to get this team back to the playoffs..Which he did. That was a realisticly attainable goal at the time– Mediocrity is a safe house for losing personalities. I dont play any game to lose..So if making the playoffs and losing is viewed as acceptable..This team– no matter if Kobe&Lebron were on it we are still losers because the expectation level is set so low the Celtic’s Leprechaun can jump over it.
Peaceman,
Isiah is not a coach, he is a mild pimp. He has the uncanny to lead you to the trick, but when the time comes to give constructive instuction..he says nothing at all while giving you this blank look.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:07 pmSome body told him it is not about winning and losing, but how you look when you play the game!
Ehus,
You claim Isiah is a mild pimp?
December 21st, 2007 at 7:14 pmGood! Sooner or later his “Bitches”
will play for him! Pimp em Zeke!
You’ve got the Stable!
– cooley, thanks for the words. Unfortunately I never did get to read Esquire’s The MEGAPHONE SYNDROME but I obviously must get my hands on a copy. maybe I’ll check ebay as I can’t find the article online.
– Peaceman, great Isola find, yet not the least bit surprising. And I have privately made that point about Lenny Wilkens many times. You should know that by many reports Lupica and Larry Brown are friends, which is why Lupica never had a negative word for Brown. A guy like Vescey could be mean-spirited, but at least he has always been an equal opportunity hater. I give some credit to that.
– Ehus, I don’t think the goal is merely back in the playoffs. If isiah wanted to he could have made some short-sighted trades to accomplish this. His goal is championship which is why the Knicks have a lot of young players. Counter example: would you rather have The Indiana Pacers squad or the Knicks? The pacers have Jermaine O’Neal and a bunch of vets that might get them in the playoffs but have no long-term upside (besides Granger). The Pacers, although better right now, are in much worse of a long-term situation. And this is why I defend Isiah’s GM record — it has long-term potential.
– LP, don’t let them take that gun!
December 21st, 2007 at 7:50 pmModi,
As we discussed the last time you pointed to the dangers of inciteful media tactics, we skimmed the dollar motives. MSM can’t create enough content for the reading audience. America and people living here are reading less and less. We have to connect the visual to the written word/news. As Warner Wolf says, “Let’s go to the video tape”. Ever since those words have been uttered, there has been a need for the MSM to transform. They are 20 years too late. Look at the online blogs. The move now is to add video links/content. The Youtubization of the world is dumming down America and the average John/Jane Q. Public. The MSM is creating content with reckless abandon. What about Thomas’ Civil Rights? Does a spectator have the right to subject an athlete or coach to verbal abuse because the News or Post “told” him/her to do that? Where do his free speech rights end or Thomas’s begin and (as you correctly noted) in private establishment where others seek the same right or privilege: to view the game uninhibited by placards or slurs.
What about this idea? The MSM need video content and added sales. When sales lag, they turn the heat on the ads department. The NYK are clearly not “hurting” from the added attention. The team played well despite the boos and hysterics by the MSM. In one night, they were 1,000 “spectators” short of a sell-out. If they told the truth, we would all see that they are really the MSG CO-SELL-OUTS!
December 21st, 2007 at 7:55 pmModi,
Deep down I know Isiah’s intent. And I would rather have the Knicks roster…I understand HIS long term goals. But much is to do with his current ingredients.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:34 pmIt is evident to me that Isiah can not focus on the continuing/ development of new talent, team identity & little details thaat will help him manage the game better. All is not lost though ,every team in the east is two good weeks away from a playoff apperarance- Isiah saw his team perform for him/us under fire. Keep the flame on their asses and and his own and the obvious is gets fixed. It is strange how things get done when you’re boss is standing over you…And when he is gone we go back to half ass work
but it was a horrendous roster to take over with 4 years hindsight because of their age, injuries, and lack of tradeability
Isiah had a lot of expiring contracts, he had the list of draft picks and he managed to make Knicks joke that will become business case in schools.
In four years this roster will be probably out of NBA. This roster has no a glimpse of a trade value based on the reputation “first me”. Have you seen Isiah making a deal talent for talent. It was usually dump from another team for nothing.
And that hysteria is fueled by the media more than anything.
Read this carefully: 39, 33, 23, 33
Finally, Larry Brown did a horrible job and deserved to be fired by anyone who watched those games. This team is capable of delivering effort every night as was showcased last year. They may have lost, but they never stopped fighting last year. This year has been quite different. Isiah the COACH also deserves blame and I have already expressed why in detail right here: http://www.cosellout.com/?p=192.
Looka at the number of blowouts this season and compare to Larry’s season.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:57 pmThomas’ comments this season are by far worse that anything Larry said two seasons ago.
Thomas firing is already due at least for two years.
–nenad, understand that I agree that thomas has done a horrible coaching job as I’ve already outlined in that link in your post. So it seems that we agree here. To be clear, I have been defending Thomas the GM, not the coach.
“In four years this roster will be out of the NBA”
Completely disagree. I look forward to getting back with you in four years on that one. Also, if you think that the hysteria is simply fueled by wins and losses then Kevin McHale and Elgin Baylor would have been treated like Saddam Hussein a long time ago. Isiah should take responsinility for the losses; the media should take responsibility for the hysteria.
– Ehus, as you saw in tonights loss and the spirited play in the 4th quarter, the Knicks have some nice ingredients, but Isiah has not used them properly
December 21st, 2007 at 11:51 pmNenad,
December 21st, 2007 at 11:53 pmI’m not the best speller or Grammer person…
but you make me look like a Rhodes Scholar!!!
Get out of the projects or trailer park for some fresh air!!!!
Stop with the blunts! You have Drain Bamage! lol
“What about Thomas’ Civil Rights? Does a spectator have the right to subject an athlete or coach to verbal abuse because the News or Post “told” him/her to do that?
Steady, here is my best guess. Any team is well within its right to remove signs from anyone. In fact in any other venue this would be done. The only reason sports doesn’t do this is because it is bad business. Rude fans tend to pay the bills. Somehow fans AND the Daily News have confused a company policy with some sort of constitutional privilege. Even take booing. People think that it is a right. It’s not a right. It’s a privilege allowed by the stadium owners. Go boo and heckle at the opera or even a golf match and they’ll throw your ass out. Just a different store policy. Period.
Its funny that you bring up Warner Wolf because back in his day, he was considered really zany. It all seems so hard to believe right now!
Good post as usual.
December 22nd, 2007 at 12:14 amPeaceman Says:
Nenad,
I’m not the best speller or Grammer person…
but you make me look like a Rhodes Scholar!!!
Get out of the projects or trailer park for some fresh air!!!!
Stop with the blunts! You have Drain Bamage! lol
Very classy from you, I guess you listen Isiah too much.
December 22nd, 2007 at 10:53 am–nenad, understand that I agree that thomas has done a horrible coaching job as I’ve already outlined in that link in your post. So it seems that we agree here. To be clear, I have been defending Thomas the GM, not the coach.
So if Cheney, Wilkens and Brown could not win with this team, you blame Isiah coach not GM.
December 22nd, 2007 at 10:55 amWho brought this players, media maybe?
nenad,
Wilkins came on the tail end of where the vets could still play or were not injured (i.e. Houston, Thomas) Cheney and Brown were all involved on a rebuilding project that red Auerbach could not have won with.
When you are coach of a rebuilding project the goal is “development”. Brown was terrible because no development went on under his watch (see 42 starting line-ups and Jackie Butler playing 4th quarters over Curry). Last year Isiah was an excellent coach because prior to injurues a lot of development was occurring (Curry, Lee, Balkman). This year Thomas is a terrible coach because all that progress has been halted and dare i say reversed in many areas.
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:02 pmMoDi,
I agree,He does not have a clue. At times it seems as though he is coaching the game from the tunnel!
NYK best defenders are JJ & Balk. They played a combined 9:09!! Hence 67 points in the first half… How is it that everyone can see that these two guys make us better collectively..They will make us better transition team because of their defense, and both run the floor really well…
Don Nelson is impeccable when it comes to playing to his teams strengths.
What are out NYK strengths?
Depth?..Youth?
The GM should fired the coach. Why?
December 22nd, 2007 at 3:40 pm1.Because he has unacceptable player/ coach relationships(destroying moral)
2. repeated poor self-assessments,which is critical for success.(Sometimes we are in situations where we have to punish ourselves..simply because it is the right thing to do)
3. IT has taken the ball club/fans/& media’s attention & reverted it to himself..If he gets out of harms way..this young team will stand a better chance because they will be able to 100% focus on court.You(IT) have to focus your energies on improving this team by acquiring players that are winners. Everyone gives him props for finding talent that others reluctantly overlook..However between all these talented diamonds in the ruff-How manys rings between them(Isiahs draft picks)Someone help me research that!!
More over,ego has taken over and he wants to prove to the world that we are wrong about his ability to coach Period. Not just these NYK. The GM can not get a good report card because he has not made a coaching change..
and it is time too.
4.Your future is now.
Balkman(energy/D) and Jeffries(concentration/ability to matchup)bring something to the floor that ignites the entire team. If defense win championships then what are our two best defenders doing Cheerleading?
5.Steph…after Miami loss,was asked to play better D and to be a leader..Note. Job discription is assigned to you before you actual do the job- last time I checked!Leadership of this team is now being assigned after IT and James ‘Colon’Cancer…the (real cancer) decide Mardy Collins should start. What ever the premise..It now his the NYK playing for themselves and the fans…And not IT and each other.
Ehus,
Statesman has made the very valid point that he believes that his personal relationships and loyalties formed with certain players as originally formed as GM may have clouded his vision as a coach. I am pretty much on board with this theory.
For reasons you state, his coaching has been so poor that i too favor him stepping aside as coach barring a permanently changed line-up tomorrow and miraculous turnaround in the next couple of weeks. But I just don’t see that happening. His removal would also help the Knicks players from being suffocated by the relentless media.
December 22nd, 2007 at 6:02 pmModi,
While you’re mentioning line up change…
What is your Starting 5?
Here’s mine:
Marbury
Crawford
Jeffries
Lee
Randolph
I prefer Crawford at the point. (Larry Brown did develope Jamal into a better all around guard during his stint as coach)
December 22nd, 2007 at 10:09 pm*At one point last year IT had Steph guarding 2 guards like Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton.. with excellent ball denial and commitment he showed great promise…(I would have like to see that again)…Unfortunately Jamal+Steph’s injury crippled that.
Careful analysis shows Jared can be effective against teams premiere scorers–superb job in limited action versus Lebron&Dirk (league MVP’s in my view)I am confident that if IT definitively assigned him to be our Bruce Bowen JJ will blossom into a gem.
Ehus,
Replace Crawford for Jones and I’ll co-sign.
Crawford, Curry, Balk, Q, Nate make for a balanced scoring and defensive effort. The Crawford/Curry chemistry is undeniable. When he’s on, Crawford is an All-Star; when off, he’s Crawful (as in 4-19 shooting).
Enjoy the games and hope for the best.
December 22nd, 2007 at 11:05 pmSteady nailed the one replacement. If we find that this lineup is just too short on offense, we considere Q at the 2… which was his natural position. He put on some weight in recent years, so I don’t know if he could still keep up with other 2’s.
Knick fans would just have to live through some of the offensive ineptitude with Jeffries and Lee to an extent. Like Steady I like Curry and Crawford coming off the bench as a tandem.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:10 amFIRE ISIAH! DUMP DOLAN PROTEST & WALKOUT
CLOTHING DRIVE TO BENEFIT NYC’S HOMELESS SHELTERS
SUNDAY DECEMBER 30, 2007 AT 11:00 am
IN FRONT OF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN
PROTEST = Stand with us outside the Garden, Be Heard.
WALKOUT = We are encouraging all fans that attend the game against the Bulls to make a statement by leaving the Garden at the end of the 3rd quarter and join us in our protest.
BENEFIT = Donate a clothing item to NYC’s homeless shelters for those less fortunate.
Due to disgrutled fan demand the protest has taken a little twist. We have decided to add James Dolan, Owner of The New York Knicks to the cause. Although Isiah is directly responsible for the debacle taken place with OUR team for the past 4 years, James Dolan is just as responsible overall. Furthermore, it’s James Dolans arrogance and and ignor-ance to do NOTHING to help this team and the changes that NEED to be made. It seems that everyone knows there is a problem besides him. The state of this team has reached a new low.
Why should we have to suffer for the doings of amateur, inexperienced, immature and uneducated ownership and management. All the while being blatantly conceited and arrogant about it!
The time has come to stand and unite. Power in numbers!
This also happens to be the day the Knicks have a home game against the Bulls which will most likely end up being another pitiful Knick lost. An ironic punctuation to an already pathetic season.
Although this protest has been initiated virally via blogs, podcasts, webcasts, various media outlets and personalities have already expressed interest and support for this protest. Their identity will come on the days prior to and the day of the protest.
So when you’re sitting there on a dark, cold winter night, this year, next year or whenever and OUR Knicks are losing another game (hopefully not by more than 20 points again), remember that someone organized a forum for you to voice your opinion. Be able to say to yourself, “I did all that I could” and be at peace with yourself instead of never doing anything. Accept mediocracy and that is what you’ll get. I never claimed that this would solve all of the Knicks problems but to do or say nothing is the real crime.
Don’t let the nay Sayers be right when they say, “Knick Fans aren’t passionate enough about OUR team and will never come together and voice their opinions. They don’t care that much about their team” I say “They are ALL wrong!
Driving by or waiting to see coverage via newspaper, web or television will not do. In order to make our point, attendance by all disgusted Knick fans is needed. Please support the efforts and message of this protest.
We’re not pompous or foolish to believe this protest will be the fix to end all problems with our NY Knicks. As die-hard fans that have suffered tremendous anguish watching this ownership and management dismantle and ruin this proud franchise and everything it stands for, our Knicks. The laughing stock of the NBA. WE MUST BE HEARD!
Please show your support Sunday, December 30, 2007 in front of MSG “The Worlds Most Famous Arena” with the “Most Pathetic Basketball Organization!”
I can be reached via email at joeyvworks@yahoo.com. Also respond if you are interested in receiving the daily protest email update.
December 23rd, 2007 at 2:49 amJoeyvworks,
Where’s Jimmy Hoffa?
December 23rd, 2007 at 9:00 amJoey, I simply cannot tell you how wrongheaded this protest is. After being his #1 defender in the past, just as you do, I personally believe that Isiah should step down as coach. I’m sure we differ on how bad a GM he is, but that is not important here.
But protest? Any more protests are simply a WIN for our vicious NY tabloids. Dolan-Isiah may be responsible for this year’s losses, but they are not the ones that created this hysteria that would take place no where else on earth. They create it, then cover the protest they create, and then reward people for the 15 minutes of fame. Now it snowballs. Protests only serve to validate the media’s hate.
This media are the same people who long for the glory days of the Patrick Ewing era, but treated him like crap and told him “Good Riddance” [NY Post Headline] on the day he was traded. Long after the Isiah era is over these people will still be here. And that is a much much bigger problem — one that you should consider. To have this focused on Isiah/Dolan – even if you, like me, believe he should be fired – is extremely short-sighted. There is a much bigger picture here, and no disgruntled Knicks fan should accept being manipulated as sheep.
I won’t question your sincerity as a diehard fan, and certainly understand the passion of those who want to protest. However, it is seriously misplaced. Personally, I want the Knicks to win as much as anybody else on this planet. I would ask the following question of any wanna-be Knick protester? Have you stood up to protest the war in Iraq? (assuming that you are against it) Have you protested against the Jena 6? Did you attend a “Save Darfur” rally? A protest against media accountability? Any other truly meaningful cause?. If the answer is a consistent NO, then that fact needs to be seriously thought through.
December 23rd, 2007 at 9:15 amAll,
Ownership:
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:18 pmEvery Owner’s (in any business) objective is not always to service the customer,or even to satisfy the customer! Many owners are in the business for the Money/PROFITS only!!
Every owner will not be a proud owner(Stienbrenner),stand by his product,if there is a servere problem w/ the goods or services: It is their job to correct the needful, insuring 100% satisfaction. If profit margins and BUSINESS are not effected ,the Cold and Selfish owner will undoubtly continue with his narrative, selling damaged goods or in this case:Something the customer can be without
-The product:
Whether it is a basketball ticket or a newspaper: the goal is to sell as many as possible(for most.., that comes at any cost)
In this scenrio: We are that cost. Our minds and emotions are being manipulated,causing us to fall for the same ol’ tricks. They create the problems, cause khaos, and provide the solution.
If you are not satisfied with the product,we dont buy it. Unfortunately..we are not just customers/fans, we are addicts!! And this franchise is and has been our addiction… for years ^And the Dolon family knows this^ When you are an addict you find everyway possible to justify your abuse.
The Customer/Fan:
Our voices have been heard by the world all ready…Isiah cant go any where w/out being reminded on what a great job he is doing. Do not waste anymore time,energy,or money protesting this management group.
-Why on earth would I go to the game for 3qts. Leave. go outside the arena and bash the owner and it management.
-That’s like going inside a Baltimore crack house!,smoke some of the crack!,demand all the feens walk out… in front of the crackhouse, and begin bad mouthing the Kingpin and his Lieutenant.-
We as consumers have all the power. NO BUSINESS can stand without its customers. You can rant and rave all you want about service..but that is null & void when you put 1 dollar in that druglords(owners) pocket.
So if you believe there is strength in numbers,The only number that matter is fan attendance. Until we gain control of our addiction , we are just as filthy as the man sell the STUFF.
It is time to get our priorities in order.
While this team may be our livelyhood…
Its Management will be our death.
Modi: You stated : “HOWEVER, it has hit a point of mass hysteria that surpasses anything that I have ever seen. And that hysteria is fueled by the media more than anything. Having a different view on Isiah is like trying to be Saddam Husseins lawyer. You just won’t make it to trial. Now THAT is because of the crazy media.”
You’re right, it has hit a point of mass hysteria to a point that anyone us have seen. Have you asked yourself why this is? The answer is quite simple, it’s terrible. I’m not attacking you but more less trying to say that I agree with you and IT IS bad. Desperate times call for desperate measures. To be quite frank with you and anyone that thinks that there are better things to do or that this is about 15 minutes of fame, all I can say is I respect your opinion. You’re entitled to it just like it is that any Knick fan that joins us on Sunday. We are all entitled to our opinions. Let’s all please remember that everyone on this thread defends thier right to express themselves. Don’t use the gun that you protect yourself with and point it at yourself.
With regards to what a protest will or will not do and what the answer really is. I couldn’t agree with anyone more when they say to stop giving the “Kinkpin” the money. Hit him in the wallet. This is easier said than done. It has to get worse unfortunately. I personally don’t want it to get to that point. I’m not so sure I can stomach much more of this disgrace. Here is what I do know, Isiah is responsible for this mess w/ Dolan standing behind him. We can all argue what he inherited problems blah, blah, blah. Have we forgoteen that he’s been making these decisions for the past 4 years + 1 day? I have said over and over, in the real world, when you don’t meet expectations or perform the ressponsibilities as they pertain to your title and function, you’re fired. Plain and simple.
We’re not looking to solve all the problems in 1 day but the process needs to start somewhere and this is where we have decided to start and that is our OPINION.
I’m going to watch to see if MY Knicks can managed to pull a win and not embarrass themselves again. Unfortunately I don’t have too much faith in a positive outvome. My calculations come up with I have a 1 & 3 chance of MY Knicks winning a game everythime they play. Anyone have a pair of dice? This sucks!
December 23rd, 2007 at 1:11 pmOne more thing. I totally forgot one last point I wanted to make in the last post.
Let’s all not forget that this is a coach that is quoted as saying that he “thinks this team is heading in the right direction”
Ok. Now I’m done.
Joe V.
December 23rd, 2007 at 1:41 pmEhus, i found myself surprisingly amused at your post — not in a bad way… just amused at the train of thought.
– je V, thanks for the commentary, and yes we have different opinions. You say: “have you asked yourself why that is?” (about the mass hysteria)
Yes, i have asked myself that question many times and the answer is “the media”. i am fully convinced if the media was less hateful, the people wouldn’t be taking to the streets. Fron 1999 - 2005 the Bulls averaged 19 wins. Why didn’t people take to the streets? Where has the Kevin mcHale mob been? Elgin Baylor has presided over the Clippers for 100 years. Did I miss the March? Did we march during the Jets Rich Kotite era? The Giants, Mets, and Knicks in the late ’70s early ’80s? Of course not. We have been hit over the head every day by epople who PERSONALLY hate Isiah’s guts. It is personal. The papers hate the Knicks for their media access policy amongst other things. It is not just performance. If it was just performance, there would be many other precedents for it. This point may be lost on you as you validate their hate.
Listen, I am dissappointed as anyone because I thought that they would go to the playoffs this year, BUT have you ever read even ONE SINGLE MAINSTREAM ARTICLE that compares the contents of the Dec. 2003 roster to other similarly terrible rosters in NBA history (when looked back at 4 years later). Have you? If you did, readers could be informed that there is virtually no historical precedence of a 4 year turn around of such a roster. (except with a lucky #1 pick like Kareem to Bucks). Do you think that such information might be useful to fans before they reach for the picket signs? Would information about the relative meaninglessness of the salary cap be useful?
Now I’m not saying that this might change your opinion on whether you think he should be fired, but it would certainly temper peoples outrage to know that Red Auerbach would have needed at least 4 years to turn that old roster into young guys.
December 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 pmStephon Marbury has a good right to be depressed. Who wouldn’t be depressed playing with bums like Eddy Curry, MisQ-Rich, and Jamal Crawford butchering every pass he makes to them? And then his coach has him in a SUBSERVIENT role on this team! Does Baron Davis play 3rd fiddle on his team? Someone remind me when this group of players won 50 games that Marbury has to be the 3rd or 4th offensive option? It’s insanity.
The problem this team is suffering from is Isiah Thomas and his devotion to Curry and Crawford. He has to give Crawford and Curry big roles because Crawford replaced Allan Houston and Eddy Curry was supposed to make us forget that we lost Ewing years ago. He made huge moves to get these two and they have NOT IMPROVED since they donned Knick jerseys. For some reason fans want to blame Marbury. It’s pathetic and rolls right in with the media madness that this site talks about.
Let’s look at Marbury’s team in Minny. All he did was take them to the playoffs. They got bumped in the first round each season. What the media doesn’t tell anyone is the Wovles didn’t get out of the 1st rd for years AFTER Marbury left. KG needed Spree and Cassell before he FINALLY got out of the first rd. And Marbury wanted out of Minny because he wanted to play here in NY. Minny didn’t want anything the Knicks had so they moved him to NJ and Marbury agreed to come over. Stop spreading lies about Marbury hating KG because he wanted more money than him. The NBA has a cap! In Phoenix, Marbury took a rookie in Amare and went to the playoffs. When they traded Marbury, the Suns went into the toilet, while Marbury took the Knicks 2003-2004 squad to the playoffs. Once again, he got bumped in the 1st rd, but that’s because he didn’t have a decent enough team. Speaking of decent enough teams, don’t talk about the Nets. Kidd got RJ, K-Mart (healthy), Kittles (healthy) and Collins, where Marbury didn’t have ANY of the above, instead playing with the likes of Sherman Douglas, Kendall Gill and Johnny Newman to name a few.
December 24th, 2007 at 2:51 amJimmy, I have never agreed with the whole: “Marbury has lost every place he has gone mantra” and echo many of your dsentiments in post #26.
I do believe that Thomas has misused the talent of Marbury by wasting his game on too many dump in passes. I’d like to see Crawfoed come off the bench.
Right now, i’m trying to stay positive and hope marbury comes back next game with renewed vigor.
You should also know that he is my favorite athlete in all of sports largely based on his off-the-court contributions…
December 24th, 2007 at 4:06 amMODI- Marbury has been terribly misused on this team and treated even worse by this new breed of moronic Knick fan. The bias of these current stupid Knick fans is disgusting. The media sends them wrong messages and they run with it. Sometimes I wonder how much of this beef is racially motivated between Zeke, Stephon and the fans since the departure of Larry Brown. It’s absolute insanity how Knick fans are behaving lately. I have been following the team since 1979 and this abysmal fan behavior has reached beyond toxic levels. I’m beyond fed up. If these so called fans don’t want to see this Knick team perform, just give up your season tickets and leave. Go root for the Nets when they get to Brooklyn is my opinion. Get fans in there who will support the team when they are down.
I hope Stephon doesn’t quit. Someone who does as much good as he does shouldn’t be treated this way.
December 24th, 2007 at 8:51 amMODI -
All I can say about the media is that they report what they want to. Not in a totalitorian manner but what is news. I think you will agree that the pitifulness of the Knicks is news right now. Once again, can any of us really disagree with the fact that this team has had a losing record for too long now? Or that there is tremendous mis-management?
One other note that can not go without being mentioned. The Knicks organization is thier own worst enemy. They had a hand in creating the hostility with the media and now the media is returning the favor and ripping them anyway and anytime they can. I do not feel sorry for all of the bad publicity. It only highlights the obvious. Would you complain if the media didn’t mention a single thing about the state of this team? Like no one was noticing that this team has been a mess for too long. Think about it… My question to you, because you are so anti-media, when is it the right time to report a negative activity? Not Darfur or Aids or those types of things but sports. The stuff that sports writers write about. Is there ever a right time for a sports writer to critisize a player, team, coach, GM, Owner or organization? I would have to say that this is an appropriate time. I would also tell you that I would have to think that the media is tired of replaying the same old crap over and over in the papers. I’m sure they would love to change this skipping record.
As for what other fans have or not have done in the past with thier team having a consistency for losing, I’m not really all that concerned about them. Does that mean because there wasn’t a revolt that revols/protests will never happen? Today is a new day with the accesiblity to coordinate and organize this type of protest from a grass roots strategy with the Internet. One other thing more importantly, we are NY Fans. The most passionate fans on this planet. Not me believing this but the fact that we have been told this in the past. It’s something we should be proud of. Having a losing historic franchise is not something we would as passionate fans take lightly. We will not.
Lastly, this is not about a 4 year turnaround. This is about the fact that were nowhere near turning around. Hell, we can’t even find the right formula with regards to an effective let alone starting roster. We’re so @#$ backwards that our 2nd team embarrasses our starting team. Sounds to me like we have moved backwards before we’ve moved forward. Sounds to me like we have given all the time needed to move forward. Please also remember that we have a coach who now says that changes need to be made and the follwoing day says he thinks we’re heading in the right direction. Which direction is that because it sure isn’t North and doesn’t even resemble drifting East or West but sure does look a whole lot like going South. I will say this once again, because this is what it is really all about. He was hired to do a job, he hasn’t come close to fulfilling his obligations. In my world, don’t perform, don’t have a job. PERIOD.
December 25th, 2007 at 3:45 amJimmy, I cosign your #60 post 100%!
Joe V, please don’t mistake my position. I am not anti-media. I am pro-media accountability. The NYTimes Knick beat writer Howard Beck is an excellent journalist. New York Newsday’s Alan Hahn has also done some good work. They report negative activity ALL THE TIME! It is quite possible to REPORT about the Knicks woes WITHOUT hate, vitriol, and a personal agenda because you hate James Dolan’s media policy and want to get back at him.
I really hope that you have done your homework about the Knicks vs. media homework, but this article is a good place to start: http://www.observer.com/2007/life-knicks-hell The Daily News HATES Dolan and Isiah. HATES them. It is personal. No newspaper, no matter how trashy, is supposed to print “Fire isiah” posters. I mean, the Daily News named Anucha Browne Sanders the NY Sportsperson of the year! …when will you get what is going on… You and your fellow protesters are merely pawns in a game that the media has created…
This is far bigger than “passionate NY fans”. The reason that nobody is picketing outside of the meadowlands is because the media is not asking them to, and is not writing hateful articles about Eric mangini every day of the week. The Jets were a PLAYOFF team last year, increased their talent in the off-season and are now one of the worst teams in football. In contrast the KNICKS WEREN’T picked by most experts to make the playoffs. Please don’t tell me about the passion of NY fans. This is a media creation and the public are the sheep.
I agree that Isiah has been a horrible coach, and have advocated he stepped down myself if the line-up changes do not result in sudden progress. But this is about protesting. And if like you say, “in my world, don’t perform, don’t have a job. PERIOD.” then I want to see you and all of your protesting fans outside of the Meadowlands calling for Mangini’s head as well. Tell me where to sign up!
Finally, despite the disagreement. I admire your passion as a fan and wish you and your family a happy holiday season.
December 26th, 2007 at 12:00 amModi/
Thanks for the heads up(regarding paragraphs).I also appreciate you making the folks aware…They have been programmed(brain washed)!! Via newspaper, radio , and TV personalities.
Unfortunately most of the general public is totally oblivious to how their views and thought patterns have been persuaded by sources other than their own mind’s.Critical Thinking, of course is neccesary…But it is even more difficult to admit to someone that you have been manipulated, controlled and activated to “hate!”
Joey made a great point- reminding us ,that desperate times call for desparate measures,& that it has to get worse before it gets better. (Joey says unfortunately….I say fortunately, because it comes at the cost of the owner being exposed for the man really is.*Every self confessed addict must see their bottom,and feel compelled to actually change) While that is not always the best way to get specific results,It does bring about a greater respect for fans and their inciteful political positions.
I realize that the optimistic- wealthy fan ,who has not uncovered the underlying reason(s) for this frachise’s state ,will continuously show up @ the Garden… aspiring to be entertained(regardless the outcome),and unaware of the true symbolism of their attendance at this time.
So, They show up (programmed) believing that BOO’s and Chants will CO-erse this team and its Coach to play better…,Not willing to sacrifice the vested dollars that James Dolon will use to get his Grey Goose and not on a franchise player that will help nurse disgusting hang-over back to sobriety.
While I never believed protesting any administration gets you to the mountain top… ,I do know exposing their agenda will put wouldbe supporters in a better position to render a verdict.
How fast would James Dolon & Family reconsider their position if only 6500 fans showed up on game nights.
December 26th, 2007 at 1:42 pmEthus & Modi -
Just a quick couple of points here. I’m glad that we agree on some points and also seem to agree that it’s ok to disagree with each other as well.
Modi - I’m not protesting infront of the Meadowlands because of Manginis performance because I do not care about the Jets. This is also not about the Jets, it’s about the Knicks. With regards to the media, the bad Knick press is a product of thier creation more than anything else as for as I’m concerned. The Dolan way of doing business which is ‘Fuck you, if you don’t like it, too bad! We will do what we want, when we want and how we want!” Is the core of the treatment they get from anyone that gives them a reason to. I do not feel bad that The Dolans are a walking target.
I am not a sheep. Whether the media supported this or not, I would still do what I have been doing for the past couple of weeks coordinating Sunday. I am my own person, and don’t need the media to confirm that organizing and coming together as one is effective or not.
Another thing I noticed in your last paragraph is that you said, “I agree that Isiah has been a horrible coach, and have advocated he stepped down myself if the line-up changes do not result in sudden progress.”. Modi - This is the END!. Do you really think that the 56th line up change of the 1st 1/4 of the season is going to have any significant results. The players are a small part of the problem. The core of the problem is the coach with the owner right behind him. Case and Point, any High School Coach would have drawn up a better plan then the plan set forth at the end of the Lakers game. It was pure immaturity and lack of experience the the scoreboard read the Knicks lost.
Ethus - I couldn’t agree with you more that the best way to get someones attention and force change is to “hit’em in the pocket”. I can only do soo much but it’s a start. It sure as hell is better than realying on the media to do our dirty work for us. If you are a fan, passionate about this club and long for yesteryear, then show up. If not, then stay home and do nothing.
Ethus, the last sentence was a general statement to all Knick fans and not directed towards you specifically.
December 26th, 2007 at 2:35 pmJoey,
No harm, no foul! However, I am passionate about my Knicks. I will not attend Sunday’s Game,and then leave(3rd qt.). Primarily because of the ‘more harm than good’ scenerio. If there was a way to get the fans to not enter the arena at all…you would have my unwavering support (100%). In essense i will be there to support the clothing portion of the cause!
If in the process.. if I find that this event is ‘properly mediated’ and its intent is clearly percieved as such, I will forfeit my stance and demand a’CHANGE’.
Best Wishes
December 26th, 2007 at 6:30 pmJoe v,
“Do you really think that the 56th line up change of the 1st 1/4 of the season is going to have any significant results.”
56th line-up change? Unless marbury has been on family leave there has not been one single starting line-up change all season. The Knicks were never going to win starting 5 scorers playing no defense and I have been screaming at my TV set since the 2nd week for a change. They have been getting killed in the 1st quarter all season with much better results in the 2nd unit. Now I’m not expecting miracles but I KNOW that this team is far more talented than it’s record. I would simply like to see it for once.
Note: Last year after the Denver fight and before the injuries hit that same week in March they were playing exciting .500 basketball. Personally, I want the opportunity to see that team. Whether under Isiah or someone else.
The young talent exists on this team. Joey, as I said to Ehus, I would take the current Knicks roster over a better performing team like the Indiana Pacers anyday of the week. That team might make the playoffs, get bounced, and have no future because they have no budding talent and no upside (besides Granger). I want to see some of out young talent play…
Not that I expect david Lee to contain Dwight Howard or anything crazy like that…
December 26th, 2007 at 7:20 pmModi,
First qrt..I like the energy and concentration.
What is going to happen w/ Steph?
With no sign of a happy reunion,should we expect a trade?
I have asked myself, what franchise(currently)can he utilize to maximize his
ability and win a championship immediately?
Let’s just say he goes!-
December 26th, 2007 at 9:30 pmWhat name, on the NBA’s list of players make NY a seven game FINALS’ appearance away from glory?
I just want everyone to know that I have truly enjoyed myself on this blog. You have really pressured me to pressure myself to think about my answers and at the end of the day, I can say I feel deep down inside as I have expressed myself. DAMN do I hate this coach and organization!
Joe V.
December 26th, 2007 at 11:42 pmEhus, I also liked the 1st quarter energy! The starting line-up change certainly seemed to work. The awfule substitution patterns are another story.
I have no idea about Marbury, but I would love to see him get the opportunity to run this offense with the new starting lineup. assuming that is possible…
Anyway, I do think that Artest will be a Knick by next year. He wants to come to NY. We could definitely use his defense and he could be had cheap…
Joe V, since you are dead set on this misguided protest thing, could you at least do me a favor and have a couple of your people hold signs up that say: FREE RENALDO BALKMAN! FREE RENALDO BALKMAN! FREE RENALDO BALKMAN!
December 26th, 2007 at 11:58 pmMaybe we will? Any one else you want to free? It’s your perogative
December 27th, 2007 at 12:00 amNope! But I do want to lock-up Q until he gets his shot back! He has not recovered from injuries and it is clear as day!
Joe, I am telling you that this team has the talent to win if coached correctly.
BTW, I firmly believe that the Knicks will bust the Bulls ass on Sunday. Then it will be 2 for 2 on protest days… in which event I will request that you show up to every home game…
December 27th, 2007 at 12:13 amThe Knicks should follow the model of the Portland Trailblazers. Formerly the ‘Jailblazers’ from 2002-2006, they cleaned house, retooled management, loaded up on and developed young talent, got lucky (Oden), made nice personnel moves (drafting Roy, picking up Knick Channing Frye, among others). They are deep and loaded for the future. The problem here is Knicks ownership has no clue (see: Dolan hubris). The Knicks need solid new ownership with vision (and sexual-harassment-free work environment), all new management, and a Roy-esque player to lead them into a new era. The odds of this happening are so slim its frightening. What is a realisitic timeline here? I mean, SO many things have to happen (don’t they?) for the Knicks to become a world-class (even competitive)organization again. Modi, you have written so eloquently about the Knicks and the upcoming season > I too thought the Knicks had playoff potential. It’s just sad. Remember when Steinbrenner was banned from the Yankee clubhouse/decision-making for a while because of Winfield tampering, etc. The resulting, enforced hands-off approach led the Yankees to develop young talent and management AND a dynasty. Isn’t Stern in a similar position to do the same to the Dolans? I mean, they just lost a huge sexual-harassment case, Stern did nothing. In the meantime he penalizes players for dress code violations and for barely stepping onto the floor during altercations (see: Stoudamire). But, I digress. The Daily News should be making signs that say, “Fire Stern” and “Fire the Dolans.” Not that I am saying anything new.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:29 amThe Knicks should follow the model of “Do what it takes to WIN with HEART and GUTS!
Merry Christmas
Call it a sneak preview:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hOZjr4gSfFU
What this is all about!
Love Ya,
Joe V.
December 27th, 2007 at 2:55 amhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=bqgWmx-VaBA
December 27th, 2007 at 5:09 amWex, I know how popular it is to say now, “they should do like the Trailblazers now”. Yes, the trailblazer are hot as hell, and when Oden arrives they will be perennial contenders. Also, Portland also has the very same ownership that it had that created the “jail blazers” in the first place. So is what you are saying “wrong”. No, but it has a lot of “hindsight 20/20″ and jumping on the bandwagon to it. The Charlotte Bobcats have basically had the exact same strategy as Portland the last couple of years but just didn’t get lucky with a #1 pick and didn’t draft as well. Atlanta has also had the same exact strategy for the LAST 10 YEARS but has drafted poorly and is only NOW seeing success. Luck and good drafting play a great role here. About one year ago no one was talking about the Trailblazers, what people WERE saying is the the Chicago Bulls were “the model franchise” about how to rebuild http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/chris_mannix/09/20/mannix/index.html
“Isn’t Stern in a similar position to do the same to the Dolans? I mean, they just lost a huge sexual-harassment case, Stern did nothing. In the meantime he penalizes players for dress code violations and for barely stepping onto the floor during altercations (see: Stoudamire).”
Wex, we really have to separate off-court with on court. Either Stern should intervene because of sex harassment case or he should not. Period. But that fact is completely independent of wins-losses. If the Knicks were 20-3 like the Celtics, do you make that same statement? The precedence of commissioner intervention because of wins and losses is a very dangerous one that extends far beyond the NY Knicks. Then what’s next? Does he force Kevin McHale’s ouster for wasting Garnett’s talent all those years?
But of course, the truth is that The New York Daily News shouldn’t be making any signs that say anything…
But more importantly, thanks both Wex and Joe. V for the “Carry on Tradition” and “Bernard Videos”. Definitely needed during these hard times.
December 27th, 2007 at 6:32 amMODI:
Can you help me to understand something…
I personally thinks Marbooty sucks ass- but that’s beside the point. I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that the unifying theme in requests to Marbaby from Wilkens, Brown and Thomas has been to actually lead the offense by creating better scoring opportunities for his teammates while passing up his own offense until such time as was needed.
Now, from where I’m sitting, none of that would preclude Mr. Marbury from putting up truly stellar numbers. Consider this: if Steph passed for the first 3/4 of every quarter - taking only the occasional full court foray or fast-break opportunity, and last second buzzer beaters after running the offense, he could average 15-18 points without running a single set play. I’m assuming he’d get 2-3 shots per quarter. (If he sat extensively he might only get 1 shot (as in the transition time between the end of the 1st and middle of the 2nd quarter)).
If at the end of quarters, he sought to take over, dominate the ball, enter the lane and maximize free throw oppts., he could probably average another 5 to 10 points per game. I’m assuming he’d get 2-3 shots per quarter - and the offense might be run through him - depending on the opponent and their defensive strategy.
In any event, he’d have the overwhelming majority of his minutes focused on passing the ball - especially his early minutes in quarters. That would energize the big guys and encourage them to run the floor. The last two-three minutes would allow him to focus his superior scoring abilities on attacking the heart and soul of the defense.
As I say, I don’t know that that has been the goal - but a guy with his skill set should be able to average about 22 and 12 in his sleep operating under this approach. It seems to me that the Knicks would be better off if Marbury’s approach was restructured this way. There should be enough shots for everyone - except Q.
—
BTW,
Aren’t you glad that I PRESSED you about a starting lineup - AND aren’t you glad that Isiah reads your blog!!!!
December 27th, 2007 at 6:21 pmmodi,
I thought the game was lost when…
December 27th, 2007 at 6:48 pmCurry and Malik Rose came out in the 4th. Regardless of what Starting line-up -Starts the game…The coach does not have a particularly good feel for anticapating sequence(s) of events. Which in my opinion leads to what we are seeing (poor management of games and untimely subs),lack of cohesiveness. I rarely ever see Coach Thomas making teams adjust to the players he has on the floor,or force teams to do something other than run their offense. Its like- there is no element of surprise by him at all. Example: trapping defense with the lead(8 points or more), full court man to man defense w/ nate picking up his man full court- causing teams to break into their offensive sets late!!)
Essentially what I see is predictable situations,stemming from his inability to read his/team’s as well as opposing teams body language.
Temple, I won’t go into “the merits of Marbury” as I think “jimmy” has done a pretty good job here and in the “Line-up change 10 point plan”.
In any case, Marbury is one of those guys who has a fine line between agression and passiveness on the court. The more that he brings the ball up the floor, the more assertive he is. In a perfect world, i wish that this wasn’t the case, however, whenever marbury has been at his best he has felt a certain brunt of responsibility to do some scoring. Personally, i believe that Thomas has misutilized him in having Crawford bring the ball up the court as many times as he does. Personally I would have Marbury bring it up every time as it helps him get into the flow, helps him make plays for others (he DID average 8 assists for many years), and helps him get to the line. Brown alienated Marbury immediately by killed him in the press when conversations should have been private. I thought that out of the 3 coaches you mentioned, Lenny used Marbury the best, let him be agressive and used pick and rolls, pick and pops (he even made Mike Doleac look good!). Since Minnesota, marbury has not had a decent supporting cast in his entire career — until THIS YEAR. Of course, the shit hit the fan with the game 5 benching and all of Marbury family and mentors dying on him. There are also questions if Marbury even cares about basketball that much anymore. he has done such incredible things off-the-court that his life obviously doesn’t revolve around his game.
BTW, isiah only read HALF of my blog post… he obviously didn’t sit your boy Q’s ass down!
Ehus, i agree with your assessment. the only thing that is so puzzling is that i thought that he did a pretty decent job coaching last year. he also did a decent job in Indiana. Sometimes his moves are so inexplicable that he seems like he WANTS to get fired!
December 27th, 2007 at 8:32 pmYou raise some solid points.
December 27th, 2007 at 8:34 pmHey Gang,
Thought you would find this funny. Modi - I didn’t come up with this for the media, I swear. (You won’t believe me anyway so oh well)
I had a guy email me today to tell me that he is coming on Sunday and he was going to burn his tickets for the game on Sunday in front of the media. Maybe he’s looking for some press, but isn’t this what everyone has been talking about? The only problem is that the Dolans already got his money and now he is pissing it away. The other side of it is, the tickets are only worth starting a fire with.
Sweet irony I guess?
Joe v.
December 27th, 2007 at 10:20 pmTEMPLE- Marbury/Marbaby sucks ass? You can’t be over 21 years old. Older Knick fans remember the days of Edmund Sherrod, Gerald Henderson, and Tony White. All which would have made Howard Eisley look like God!
I have a prevailing theory about the modern day under 25 years of age Knick fans. They only remember the good days. Before the 1990’s, there weren’t any days of suffering until the playoffs rolled in. The Knicks were always competitive and they made us proud. Those of us from the 80’s remember a totally different era.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:19 amJimmy,
I read your point about the NYK of yesteryears. One major problem with sports fanaticism today is the roles played by the MSM. All of a sudden, the “most knowledgeable fan” can break down a game by repeating what s/he read from some no-athletic hack who was not even allowed to bring water and warmed towels for the team, IN HIGH SCHOOL.
Not defending Temple3 here because I, too, am always reticent to talk about the ability of professional athletes. First off, I never made to that level. Plus, what does it get me to disparage someone else? Still, Temple3 may be right in his comment if you put the testimony from the ABS mess in play. The consensual sex act performed in that truck may have included the verb and noun he typed here. Beyond that, we know that Marbury is married. While he’s not grieving, one can safely assume that he’s doing some of that verb and noun to his Ho-ther half like all good- knowing and God-fearing married men.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:07 amYou know what’s good. I would disconnect, however, if he was talking about the athletic act and God-given talent that Marbury has been honing since he was 3 years old.
Steady, too much code for me to keep up! I know that I could get it all if I really put my mind to it, but it;s late and I’n tired!
Joe, that guy who is will burn tickets is EXACTLY what I’m talking about when i say media-fueled. He wants his 15 minutes like the jersey tosser and Jason Silverstein. Tell him to give his tickets to me or to some kid who never had the opportunity to see a live basketball game before. seriously.
December 28th, 2007 at 3:01 amHi Modi,
December 28th, 2007 at 10:13 amIf you adjust the time stamp on the blog, you won’t be so tired when you respond. You will have at least 1 hour of rest.
I wanted to chime in on this debate. The media is the one that is treated like garbage by Jim Dolan and MSG. Just read the NY Observer Article from earlier in the month called Life In Knicks Hell and you will see what I mean.
I agree with those that blame Dolan, his management heirarchy has lacked vision. One former employee called him myopic which is appropriate for the Knicks situation.
Although Isiah is a symptom of a larger problem his behavior is not an element of media. Ignoring the teams vote to bench Marbury is just poor management. Ignoring the importance of defense is incompetance. He knows he lost this team and he has no one to blame but himself. Isiah has never demonstrated solid leadership in any of his positions. He is just not built for management or coaching.
I am sorry anyone who blames the media for Isiah’s problems are the same people who blame society for issues instead of demanding people take accountability for themselves.
This does not dismiss Dolan, but by no means is the media at fault here. We can blame the media for a lot of things in this country, but there is no bias with Isiah.
December 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pmModi - I’m not going to tell him to do anything. It;s his perogative to do whatever the hell he wants with his tickets wherever he wants. Let me ask you this question. Forgive me for not knowing exactly where this took place. It slips my mind at this point but I remember and image of someoe in a southeast asian country (I believe) standing in front of an Army tank. I believe this made it into Time Magazines best images of the century type of thing. Can you tell me whether that person was standing in front of that tank becuase they were looking for 15 minutes of fame or because they were standing up for something they believed in. Now please, don’t go there and tell me that it was for a greater cause. It has much more to do with things on a basic level. Standing up for what they believe in. PERIOD.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:05 pmGotham Hoops Live, thanks for posting:
I have ceratainly read the NY Observer Life in Knicks Hell, and I believe that some of the “good” Knick beat writers like Howard Beck and Alan Hahn DO NOT let hard deli sandwiches on hard bread affect they way they write stories. Why? Because that is what professional writers do. If the Knicks have a strange media policy, it also might have something to do with how the vicious tabloids cover them. Long before James Dolan arrived the tabloids were writing things like “Good Riddance” on the day Patrick got traded. The Knicks tabloid certainly had a hand in CREATING the current Knicks policy if anything.
But your big mistake is creating the always destructive “either/or” scenario that either pins it all on Isiah or the media. Just because Isiah has coached the team poorly does not excuse the media — in particular the Daily News in this case. You don’t have to take a journalism 101 course to know that a newspaper, even a tabloid newspaper, should not be issuing “Fire Isiah” posters with fan instructions. This is basic stuff. It is quite possible for someone to support Isiah being fired as coach AND know that guys like Lupica, Lawrence, and Isola have been completely biased in how they cover the Knicks for a very long time. Both concepts can be simultaneously true. The Daily News selection of Anucha Browne sanders as NY Sportsperson of the year should surprise no one who knows what is really going on.
To say “by no means is the media at fault here” is basically an admission that there simply exist no lines that the media can’t cross. Anything goes, and it’s okay. Sorry but I don’t believe in media Wild Wild West, but media accountability.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:11 pm“Now please, don’t go there and tell me that it was for a greater cause. It has much more to do with things on a basic level. Standing up for what they believe in. PERIOD.”
Sorry Joe, that is exactly what I will tell you. Yes, being inflammatory is a necessary part of activism. That point is a fact and I won’t refute that. Mr. ticket burner wants to get on camera like mr. jersey tosser and mr. Silverstein. James Dolan will make no change unless he wants to. Burning tickets won’t help, although not buying them might.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:20 pmJoey,
I think this disgruntled fan would be doing something a bit extreme, However I can clearly translate/equate his behavior with that of a feen who has lost his fellow junkie buddie to an over dose…Now he wants to throw elicit parafilnalia all over the streets in front of the “kingpin”.
December 28th, 2007 at 2:39 pmMy advice,dont let that DOPE go to waste;that kid who has never been to a Knick’s game may just be better off in his drug free school zone.Lets hope for the best.
Jimmy -
If I could go back and be 21, they’d have to shut this city down. I’m almost double that and he still sucks - and has for sometime now. To be honest, I’ve never loved his game: not at Ga. Tech, not anywhere. He’s always been dynamic and electrifying - but I’ve never viewed him as a dominant lead guard.
Funny me - I place too much value on the quality of passes by lead guards. I am concerned about speed, timing, type and accuracy. In most respects, I view him to be a sub par passer. I have respect for what he does off the field. I’ve bumped into him a few times here and there. He’s a decent enough fellow. And, generally speaking, I’m not a hater by trade…so don’t think it’s about a predisposition to spew venom. It ain’t that.
I’d simply like to see him actually dominate the league like we were told he would when he was born - when he left elementary school - when he went to Lincoln - when he ripped it at Lincoln - when he flexed in the ACC - and when he stood on the podium on draft night. He has all the skills - but there is a missing ingredient - and when that missing ingredient is missing in someone who is supposed to be great, it means something.
When Bo Jackson gets injured, people talk about what could have been for decades. When some other Schmo has to call it a career, people say, “Pass the peas.” Stephon is supposed to be Starbury…this is New York - not Peoria or Minneapolis or even Atlanta. When I say that he sucks, it’s not about his talent or his capacity…it’s about his routine execution…his will to manifest his highly cultivated right to dominate.
And, sir, there is no question. When it comes down to it, when you get down to the nitty gritty of dominant point guards in this association, that dude sucks ass. It may be pretty, but it sho’ is the truf.
December 28th, 2007 at 4:54 pmPut another way - and more succinctly…on a scale of 1 to 10, how do you believe he would rate his own career in terms of what has transpired and what was/is possible…without excuses or stories or any enabling subtext — just production and what he has been able to create on the 94?
With so many aspects of his game at the same level they were a decade ago, I can’t imagine an honest self-assessment much higher than a 6.
December 28th, 2007 at 4:59 pmTemple, as you readily admit, you are judging Marbury vs. his “potential” based on his high school prowess and subsequent cross-over. I just don’t know how fair that is. I mean he averaged 20 and 8 his first 10 years. And besides Minnesota, not one of those teams until this year surrounded him with any talent to expect playoff victory.
Now I’m upset that marbury’s jumper hasn’t really improved over the years, but that is true for so many players… and that may very well be more rule than exception…
What if marbury was treated just like another highly-touted PG coming out of college, you know like Mike Bibby. Marbury’s #’s are better tahn Bibby’s (assists too). Bibby lost with the Grizzlies and hasn’t won a playoff series in the last three years. In between, he won with great players around him. players that marbury never had. My point is that maybe Marbury is just a better version of Mike Bibby… and what is so bad about that?
December 28th, 2007 at 7:46 pmModi:
I’m not sure what is wrong with judging him against his potential…put another way - against the projected performance arc of his youth. The gap between actual and predicted performance is sizeable. As for Bibby, well…
When Marbury came out of college, there was another highly touted point guard. It was a guy who was a little smaller than Bibby who went to Georgetown. I don’t want to compare those two players - do you? In all fairness, he’s had a better career than his predecessor on the altar of NY high school basketball hype: Kenny Anderson. Perhaps that’s the only player to whom he can be fairly compared - their career paths were eerily similar for many years.
I thought Stephon did an admirable job in Phoenix. I don’t believe he garnered sufficient praise for his efforts there. They were an injury and a lucky bounce or two from beating the Spurs and upsetting some apple carts in Vegas. With that said, Steph looks to be the same cat that left Tech…still a streaky, unreliable jump shooter…still a question mark at the free throw line (high 70’s is simply not good enough)…and he’s never rounded out his stat lines (or floor game) by adding rebounds or steals or much of anything else.
I’d have to go back and check the lineups for your “no talent” argument, but I would imagine there have been guys who played with less support and had more success.
Maybe “sucks ass” is too strong a term for “classic underachiever,” but given his recent tutelage from the gods of point guard play, I can’t help leaning toward the former and away from the latter. Then again, maybe Wilkens, Brown and Thomas were sending mixed messages and have only worsened the situation. It may be that Steph has a very solid explanation for all of this (like being extorted by the Russian mob for hockey players) and I’ll gladly retract my statements…until then, I’m stickin’.
December 29th, 2007 at 8:17 amTEMPLE- Expectations are one thing. Reality is quite another. If you’re car doesn’t have the gas to get 200 miles, you’re only going as far as the gas gets you. That’s what sports is about. His team isn’t good enough. It doesn’t rebound. It doesn’t defend. It doesn’t shoot it from the outside well enough. Those are the facts. Everything else is just salad dressing, my man. Where you think he doesn’t pass well enough, I will tell you he doesn’t have explosive big men who can finish around the hoop after he gets them the ball. When he has had them, he has gone to the playoffs. When you say he doesn’t pass the ball at the right time, I will tell you his perimeter shooters aren’t good enough to get the job done. When has Marbury been blessed with a zone busting shooter on the Knicks?
When Marbury was traded to us in 2004, he was one of the best point guards in the league. What Zeke has done to his game is downright criminal. We are deprived of seeing him dominate because Zeke has to justify the Curry and Crawford trades. You can’t get milk from a bull. You aren’t going to get dominance if he isn’t allowed to shoot the ball whenever he needs to. As long as Zeke is convinced that this team’s best interest rests in the hands of Curry and Crawford, we’re not going anywhere for a long time.
My prayers are that both Crawford and Curry opt out of their deals next year and we get ourselves better players in their respective positions. We can only hope these guys DO opt out, because it’s their option to do so and not the Knick option. God knows a cleaning house would occur if the Knicks had the outs in their possession.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:42 amT3, wasn’t Bibby the 2nd pick in the draft? Doesn’t that say something about his arc?
But you are right, fellow NYC prodigy Kenny Anderson is probably the best comparison…
“sucks ass”? yes, to stong. “Classic underachiever?” Well, I don’t know if this term is fair for ANYBODY who makes all-star teams… in his career… Kwame Brown? Now HE is a classic underachiever!
BTW, I’ve got an article in my head on Marbury that should show up sometime in the next couple of weeks that should answer some of your Q’s
December 29th, 2007 at 10:42 amIf your*….I’m off this morning.
December 29th, 2007 at 10:43 amMichael Olawokandi - Sucks ass
Jason Williams — Classic Underachiever
Darko Milicic — Sucks ass
Keith Van Horn — Classic Underachiever
Nikoloz Tskitishvili — Sucks ass
Glenn Robinson — Classic underachiever
Stomile Swift — Sucks ass
Drew Gooden - Classic Underachiever
Do we really need to continue this exercise?
December 29th, 2007 at 10:54 amI’m sorry Jimmy…you’re wrong…
you know why?
Stephon wishes that his career went as well as Isiah’s. Isiah didn’t have it easy and was still able to put together a great playing career.
If every coach has had issues with Steph at one point or another, at some point, Steph has to step up and evaluate what it is that he’s doing wrong. Steph did that to some extent last year. He put the penchant for stat hording aside and played his best all-around season ever.
Now that he’s had to endure the season from hell -a public relations nightmare plus deaths in his inner circle of family- everyone’s put him in question.
I feel bad for him because the public criticism is at an all time high while his personal life is at an all time low…rumors are being spread…lies are being told…
but the fact remains that Steph is one player statistically and another realistically. Zeke has tried to give him the formula for great leadership and Steph doesn’t seem to want to stick his neck out for his coach.
Has there ever been a quote attributed to Steph (as a Knick) that made him out to be a man of responsibility?
I don’t know. But I don’t think so.
Just when I thought this was Steph’s team to lead…he stepped aside and let Curry have it.
By design?
Or by default?
I don’t know.
December 29th, 2007 at 2:56 pmModi - that’s hilarious.
Jimmy…I feel your passion. Keep it up - the Knicks need that right now.
December 30th, 2007 at 3:41 am“Has there ever been a quote attributed to Steph (as a Knick) that made him out to be a man of responsibility?”
BARF, yes it was this summer when he said “there are more important things than basketball”? …and in reference to his sneakers he said…”what we are basically trying to do here is Change the world”…
…but I think that you might have meant ON THE COURT…
– Note, I agree that Isiah has misutilized Marbury with the exception being the second half of last year
December 30th, 2007 at 12:23 pmBARF- How am I wrong? Marbury has been INCREDIBLY miusued by Isiah. I can’t harp on how better the Knicks play when Marbury doesn’t have Crawford around. And let’s get real about who the team belonged to. This is Marbury’s team, but Isiah is the one who deemed Curry as the go to guy. It was a stupid attempt, because Curry doesn’t do enough on both ends to justify that type of tag. Marbury has sacrified his game, which he wouldn’t do for Larry Brown, while watching INFERIOR players try to be something they’re not. That isn’t being a team player? That’s not trying to show leadership? Give me a break, man. Enough with the tired ass cliches and let’s talk basketball! What coach removes the scoring responsibilities from his best player? Name me one! Isiah is coaching like the GM who has to prove his trades were the right ones- namely Curry and Crawford. The problem here is Crawford and Curry are USELESS if they aren’t scoring. They are both HORRENDOUS defenders. Their offense does NOT make up for their POROUS defense on the other end. The solution here is to lose Jamal, Curry and Miss-Q-Rich (another BRILLIANT shooting exhibition today from him, BTW). Let’s start looking for player solutions to the problem at hand. Why not let Marbury shoot 20-25 times a game, and put Lee, Balkman and others into the game who do NOT require the ball to make a difference? Remove the offensive responsibilities Crawford has. Make Marbury more of a feature scorer. Forget the point guard dilemna, because the point guard on our team is the team’s best scorer. Marbury, unlike Crawford, creates opportunities for others with his penetration skills. Crawford simply doesn’t get it done for anyone other than himself. He is a bit part to a successful team. Marbury and the team needs someone better than Crawford at shooting guard.
I have no doubts that Isiah Thomas had this in mind before the season started. When Marbury said he would be more offensive this year, it meant less shots for Curry and Crawford and I’m sure Thomas wasn’t liking what he heard. Thomas is simply coaching to preserve his reputation as a GM. The fact of the matter is Thomas was ready with a hammer for Marbury and he took advantage of it after the Heat loss when he tried to bench Marbury. If Marbury tries to do things himself, Thomas would say Marbury is no team player. Marbury submerges his game, the team suffers, and Marbury is STILL being tagged as a player who can’t help his team.
I’m all for Thomas being removed as the coach. He has turned this team into a disaster with his coaching. The players aren’t stupid. This was close to a .500 team when Marbury had it his way in 2003-2004. The 2004-2005 season was the last year Marbury had full reign of the offense and they ended up at 33-49, but this was a fractured team without Allan Houston on the squad. This was also a team that Marbury despised because of the heartless efforts against the Nets in the playoffs, particularly Kurt Thomas, who as the team’s “enforcer” did nothing to K-Mart RJ after this hard fouls on Tim Thomas and Marbury. Larry Brown arrived and Marbury has never had the free reign to shoot the rock. It’s time we take this back to 2003-2004 and allow Mr. Marbury to be himself and let these guys play around him and not the other way around.
December 30th, 2007 at 11:37 pmVery sensible points made here Jimmy. I still can’t understand how we regress from the accomplished team we had last year by adding a more potent scorer and rebounder.
December 31st, 2007 at 1:52 amyes, good points Jimmy. Marbury has been misutilized, however, i really do like Crawford as a 6th man.
December 31st, 2007 at 2:16 amSTEADY- I will tell you how. Despite Curry’s good start last year, the Knicks didn’t start playing well until the brawl. Looking back at last year, that coincides with Marbury playing better. We had a nice stretch of soft games on our schedule beginning in late February and early March, but our team was wrecked by injuries. During that stretch Marbury played really well and the Knick went 5-2. This is a better team when Marbury is allowed the freedom to score. Adding Z-BO has taken shots away from Stephon and Curry. Somewhere along the line, someone has to take control of this team from a scoring standpoint. The offense is MISERABLE this season. You take the ball out of Marbury’s hands and this team plain sucks.
MODI- Perhaps you should do an article on how Zeke poor coaching and how the offense needs to be run through Marbury. We need to begin with the Larry Brown season. Log the record of the Knicks when Marbury scores over 20, 25,30, and 35. Take into account games where Marbury didn’t play and check the record minus Stephon. I would NOT include games from last season post March 6th, when the Knicks played without Lee, Crawford and Q-Rich. I think a lot of Knick fans would be shocked at the results. I think there is something with some of the current teammates not liking Marbury, because they don’t want Marbury being the feature player. What other reason would there be?
Frustrating game yesterday. Just frustrating
December 31st, 2007 at 2:10 pmModi,
Many sensible fans view Crawford as nothing more than a 6th man. However, I view a different game being played by IT. In the same thought pattern that caused the HOF saboteur to demand a trade for Francis, Crawford is now the featured PG and “emerging leader”. In the end, it should equate to Marbury being DNP/CD/Bereavement.
That plan has backfired again because Marbury is arguably the best player on the team. (MY ARGUMENTS FOLLOW) He can defend his man better than Zach. He can score with the same aplomb. He can rebound his position. He is a PG and the gameplan works through him.
Back in the day, the players would just go out and execute winning plays despite the coach–(Jordan-Pippen to Collins and Jackson; Magic-Kareem to Riley, Westhead; Thomas-Laimbeer to Daily; Stockton-Malone to Sloan; Bird-McHale to KC Jones, Bill Fitch). Now, today’s NBA is different because of the Lone Rogue Refs and the NY scripts set up by Stern. And in NY, IT is the end all of all. It would be hard to get out of the team concept. I wish they could go back to the style from the end of last season and this time with a 20-10 player in their midst.
December 31st, 2007 at 3:28 pmSTEADY- Simplicity, my friend. To play team ball one needs a team first lol. We ain’t going anywhere with these guys. I would trade Crawford to a team looking for scoring punch and look to get back expiring contracts. If I could, I would try Seattle. Give me Wally Z and his expiring deal. Just ask Wally to sit around and hit open shots, nothing more. Knicks could have used Giricek. That would have been a good chance to dump Crawford and put in someone who fills a real need.
December 31st, 2007 at 3:35 pmJimmy, I agree with your points about Stephon. Most of them, really. I agree that Stephon is a skilled PG and the best option at the PG for this team. I’d go as far keeping Curry on the bench and benching QRich in favor of Jeffries/Balk.
I think my argument boils down to teaching leadership qualities? How does Isiah teach a man like Stephon to be a better leader in the midst of a spiteful and inciteful NYC media. Not just scoring 20 and 8 but inspiring your teammates to follow your example.
How do you explain Stephon leaving the team? Is there more to the story in your opinion?
Last year, Steph received credit and recognition for stepping his play. The team responded and went on a tear. But between all the summer’s press, the court testimony, the addition of another shot hungry big man and the AWOL event…not to mention a month long absence… I don’t think it should be a surprise that Steph’s influence is being questioned.
I just think there’s more to the story than “Isiah is misusing Stephon”. The second half of last year was proof that Isiah was getting through to Steph. This year he’s been missing and has yet to show who he showed himself to be last year.
Maybe he’s the final experiment for this year. Maybe he’s the final frontier. Add him back to the mix (starting Lee & Jeffries, benching Curry and QRich) and see where that gets us.
But if that doesn’t work out…Steph’s contract is the next one to expire. He’s had his chance to shine in NYC. Curry’s has had his chance. QRich has had his chance.
Yes, Zeke took a chance on every one of these dudes. They got to step it up too.
December 31st, 2007 at 4:49 pmI can understand why people don’t like JCraw. The playground handle, the double pumping floaters in the lane, the spinning shoulder fakes and wild shots…
but for Giricek?
Nah. Leave the GMing to the pros.
Giri’s just an expiring contract. We don’t more expiring contracts, we need bodies. players who can play both ways.
But then again, so do most of the teams in the league who are struggling.
The GM’s job is far from over. The coach’s job hasn’t yet begun.
Steph’s contract is up next. With Steph having publicly announced that he’s off to Italy when his contract is up, why would you feature him? Why not take his announcement as a chance to feature others?
I don’t find enjoyment in the coach’s decisions and the results of those decisions…but going away from Stephon is understandable when you look back on the last few years and take into account his statements.
December 31st, 2007 at 4:57 pmJimmy, good idea about a Stephon article, i may research it. In any case, i have had a totally different Stephon article in my head for sometime, but never got achance to put it to down. Maybe when he finally comes back will be the right time.
Steady, we wish for the same things!!!
BARF, you are right, this is now the final experiment with Marbury coming back with the new lineup. So true.
December 31st, 2007 at 8:08 pmBARF- I am not huge into cliches to defend or attack players. This notion that Isiah is trying to teach Marbury leadership by sticking in there with inferior players simply doesn’t wash for me. The bottom line is teaching Marbury to be a better leader isn’t making Curry a better rebounder and defender, nor is it making Miss-Q-Rich a better shooter, nor is it making Crawford a better player from the perimeter. That stuff is mostly cliches. I’m sure we wouldn’t be wondering about Marbury’s leaderships skills if he had KG, HeGotGame, and P2 on his squad.
As for the leaving the squad drama, I believe Isiah set Marbury up. Marbury isn’t stupid enough to walk out on his team knowing full well the consequences that would lead up to it. I think Isiah knew he would fall for it (telling him to go home if he didn’t want to come off the bench) and Marbury obliged. The truth will never come out, but that seems to be the underhanded way Isiah operates. He tells Marbury it’s ok to leave, but he really doesn’t give him permission.
The way I see it, Isiah is going down with Crawford and Curry playing huge minutes. He knows this has to be a “team effort” because he doesn’t want these chumps crying because they can’t do anything other than shoot the rock (Curry and Crawford). Let’s make sense of this. Curry and Crawford aren’t big time players. Why is Isiah coaching this “team” game? It’s not because he thinks all these guys are all equal talents. It’s his spin to cover his ass. I imagine Curry is sulking because he isn’t the #1 option these days. Isiah doesn’t want to lose Crawford to the same sulking which Crawford frequently went through with Chicago when he was not the feature player. It’s insanity at this point. I have no problem with Marbury taking less shots, but shouldn’t he be deferring shots to superior players?
December 31st, 2007 at 9:10 pmBARF- As for Giricek, I just want a shooter from the perimeter and the ability to fill a spot on the roster in the future with his expiring contract. By removing the delinquently awful 40% shooter that Crawford is, there are more shots available for the better shooters who will take higher % shots. And anyone out there plays defense better than Crawford at this point.
December 31st, 2007 at 9:47 pmJimmy, I agree about the dire need for a perimeter shooter, but don’t necessarily see an expiring contract as valuable, with the only exception being that isiah has a handshake deal with Lebron for 2010.
I also want to weigh in on this “Go Home” thing between Isiah and Marbury. As an employment readiness trainer, i have heard of this exchange happening many times. Supervisor says “well, if you don’t like it, then you can go home” or something like that. The employee goes home, and the supervisor believed the person “quit” because they had the balls to take up the offer. This is not that uncommon, and this is my best guess about what happened with Isiah and Marbury. And if something like this happened, Marbury wouldn’t be LEGALLY at fault, but still is at fault nonetheless as a player and teammate. he should know better (assuming this scenario is accurate).
December 31st, 2007 at 11:42 pmMODI- Where I agree that getting under the cap isn’t the saving grace it’s made out to be, there is a silver lining in being under the cap after 09,10,11. We’re talking Wade, Carmelo, Kobe and Lebron all with outs in their contract. No matter what, Wade is NOT resigning with the Heat once the Daddy retires. Melo might resign, but Lebron is as good as gone merely out of NBA pressure to go to a larger market. Fact of the matter is, I would pray for the departure of a few non-impact players for the opportunity to acquire one of these studs. Wade would be perfect in my opinion. I refuse to believe we can’t get one superstar to play in the Big Apple if the chance presented itself. Personally, I think Lebron is a Net if the Brooklyn arena gets built. Think Kobe wouldn’t want to land here at MSG?
DeAndre Jordan comes out in the draft. We bag our big man of the future, at least on the defensive end this draft. In 2 or 3 years, we snag one of the aforementioned superstars. You let Curry, Crawford and others leave via free agency as their contracts expire or they opt out or you trade them for expiring contracts along with draft picks We begin signing free agents that can actually help us. I’m all for the Knicks trading their players for draft picks and expiring contracts.
Look at what the Sixers did. They have a poor record. What do they do? They trade a contract that has 3 years and 16 million left on it to the Jazz for their 1st rd pick and a contract that is finished after this season. That is EXACTLY the type of trades Isiah needs to make. Why can’t we remove guys like Miss-Q-Rich, Jamal Crawford, Jefferies, Rose for guys who have expiring contracts and their 1st rd pick? The Jazz can afford to take the contract length because they are always competitive. They can give up the 1st rounder. We need to get players. The draft and free agency need to be used. The Jazz could use Kyle Korver, but can’t use Jamal Crawford? I refuse to believe someone out there can’t use some of the players we have. The Lakers can’t use Miss-Q-Rich off the pine? I don’t buy it. You might think this is nuts, but I would move Crawford for Kwame Brown and the Lakers 1st rd pick this year and in 2010 NON-PROTECTED, right NOW. Gamble worth the risk, since there is a chance Kobe could opt out, making the Lakers a lottery team in 2010. This is the type of vision required by Isiah, but we won’t see it, because he probably feels he won’t be around by then.
I would also move Curry to a team like Orlando for Arroyo and Pat Garrity and their UNPROTECTED 1st rd picks this year and 2010. You all might think I’m insane, but this year we have guys like Antawn Jamison and Gilbert Arenas who will opt out of their contracts this year. Moving Crawford and Curry for contracts that expire GUARANTEE you a chance at guys like him. Did I forget to mention Okafer is also unrestricted? He might be, but you get the idea. You can’t have it both ways. There is no excuse for staying in this quagmire-like state Isiah is in. I’m all for the blowing up of this team and getting multiple draft picks in trades down the line. Time has come to blow this up.
January 1st, 2008 at 2:46 pmJimmy, thanks for tyhe post. I am not nearly as optimistic about getting under the cap as a rebuilding dtrategy (see The Salary Myth http://www.cosellout.com/?p=131). My guess is that most of the guys that you named will be resigned before that date OR will be more likely to get moved in a trade. Once a team realizes that it will definitely lose a great player to free agency, they will trade them than get nothing in return.
However, the biggest exception here might be Lebron because even if he signed for half the money with the Knicks his endoresment would more than make up for it. Besides he really wants to be a billionaire. However, if I’m a GM, I’ve got to get some inside scoops ahead of time to rebuild that way. (I have very little doubt that jerry west KNEW that Shaq would be coming to LA from Orlando back in ‘96)
About the Sixers, I have no idea how they got a #1 pick for Korver. Q-Rich’s back makes him untradeable, and I don’t know that Crawford will fetch you one. Curry can get you something if the other team can pair him up with a nice defender, but not nearly anywhere as your proposal.
Now the most plausible name on your list IMHO is Emeka Okafor. His defensive stengths are exactly what the Knicks need and he wouldn’t be needed for offense. I can definitely see a trade with Charlotte here.
January 1st, 2008 at 4:56 pmMODI- I agree 100% with your salary cap piece. The one BIG problem that theory has is that NYC is a marketing tool for these players. The fame and fortune Madison Square Garden offers cannot be replicated by too many teams. That alone should be good enough to sway a free agent. It worked with Allan Houston years ago. They dumped Charles Smith’s contract for a chance to get greatly under the cap years ago. It managed to get them Chris Childs AND Allan Houston.
As for your concerns with great players being moved, the players I am talking about have outs in their contract (Melo, Arenas, Lebron, Wade, Kobe). These players control their own destiny. If they choose to opt out, the team is screwed (see Seattle with Rashard Lewis). Seattle tried to extend him for 2 years, but Rashard said NOPE! Each player I mentioned has the same opt out ability. Totally different scenario as opposed to a player’s contract simply running out (Antwan Jamison for example and Stephon Marbury next season).
Look at it this way. Crawford and Curry both have the ability to LEAVE following next season. They have opt out options the Knicks don’t control. They can follow the same path Rashard Lewis took and leave the Knicks with nothing anyway.
It’s easy to figure out how Philly got Utah’s #1 pick this year. They’re a team going to the playoffs. They needed to clear out Giricek, who wasn’t working out for them and they got a piece they figured could help their bench. They thought it was OK to make the trade. The Sixers got compensated for absorbing Utah’s headache by taking the pick and losing a long term deal. Utah got rid of their headache, got a younger player and absorbed 15 million in salary over the next 3 years. As far as I am concerned, these are the kinds of trades poor teams make to get themselves in a better position cap-wise AND get themselves draft picks. Kudos to the Sixers. Kudos to the Jazz for strengthening their bench and removing a player who the coach had issues with. It’s a win win for both teams. The Jazz need that 1st rd pick like I need another credit card bill. Same goes for playoff bound teams.
January 1st, 2008 at 8:10 pmMODI- Curry needs to fetch us those 2 draft picks we lost. I would be happy with that. I would also be happy if we had the ability to sign a player and replace his contract slot. I want NOTHING but empty contracts back for Curry. I want the ability to secure someone who can actually play. Why trade Curry for another bum? Been there done that. If we can’t find someone via free agency, so be it. We’re going to suck. That’s that! Why compound the problem by trading Curry for “talent” or “somebody”? That’s what got us in this mess in the first place with Ewing/Rice/Shandon Anderson/Howard Eisley. I rather us have the chance to get someone via free agency or the lottery than expect us to rise again by suckering someone into giving us a future star for Curry. THAT scenario is NOT happening in our lifetime, man. I rather them forego the trading Curry for equal talent part and allow the Knicks the ability to go find that talent at their discretion.
Blow this up before the trade deadline. Package Curry, Crawford, Miss-Q-Rich, Malik Rose in seperate deals, get us a bunch of draft picks and give us the flexibility to sign some guys who can play some ball. Give Balkman, Lee, Wilson Chandler, Morris, and others a chance to play. This year is OVER. Time to look ahead to the future.
January 1st, 2008 at 8:26 pmYour point about NYC marketing advantages definitely has merit. All I would say is that as a GM, I would want some under-the-table info. Not necessarily a Joe Smith-to-T-Wolves contract, but some reasonable assurances, even if non-guaranteed.
Curry lost 1.5 draft picks. Remember that the 2nd one was essentially a Joakim Noah for Chandler “swap”.
The problem with the Ewing trade is that we received aging garbage in return (Rice was cooked!)… Your strategy notwithstanding, would a Curry/Nate for Okafor package mean anything to you? Okafor might leave anyway.
January 1st, 2008 at 10:12 pmMODI- That trade won’t work under the salary cap, Modi, unless Charlotte agrees to a sign and trade, which isn’t likely. Curry did cost us positioning in the draft, though. Hey, in order to get a guarantee from a potential free agent about to opt out, you have to have cap space to offer the guy a huge contract. If Okafur DID want to play for the Knicks, but Charlotte didn’t want any of the Knick players, guess where Okafur goes? Somewhere else! If the Knicks had some cap room, he arrives here without an issue.
The idea to blow this up is the right thing to do for many reasons. These characters we have right now aren’t going to get it done minus Marbury. The “minus Marbury” era is fast approaching! Let’s not kid ourselves here. The current starters are pathetic. Randolph is the only character worth keeping and I’m not sure he is playoff material either. That makes this team a total disaster. Watching them play minus Stephon is absolutely frightening. There is NOTHING to look forward to. I’m not excited about Collins. Nate can go. Chandler has not been given a shot. Lee is OK. He isn’t a starter right now. Miss-Q-Rich looks fried. Jamal Crawford isn’t a starter for a good team. Curry can’t play unless he gets 15-20 shots, and he still can’t rebound. Rose is a bum. Jeffries is a borderline backup/bum. Fred Jones is a bum. Balkman is a 6th man. Where is our future? I’ll tell you where! Our future is on another roster and in the future NBA Drafts. We’re toast if Isiah doesn’t blow this up.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:03 amI don’t know who wouldn’t be in favor of blowing this up after seeing Salmons and Garcia HUMILIATE Miss-Q-Rich and Crawford.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:57 pmOkay… at some point the Knicks just have to win. All this analysis analyzing why they haven’t been winning is all well and good, and i can’t argue with most of it, but at some point they have to start winning.
The Knicks just got blown out at home to the Kings, THE KINGS, and not the C-Webb, Vlade, Peja circa 2000 version. They got dominated by Salmons, Garcia, and Brad Miller. RON ARTEST DIDN’T EVEN PLAY. If not for the Heat, the Knicks would have the worst record in the East. The WORST!!! and this is team that has avoided significant injuries this year.
So when Isiah Thomas talks about not leaving until they win a championship and restoring pride in the Knicks uniform, like he did for the Pistons, and how he feels like he’s building something and some of the guys he has know will be part of a championship. And that a trade isn’t needed! wha?! You tend to be a little skeptical and you begin to question his objectivity (and maybe even his sanity). How is this team going to be markedly better in the second half of the year, how is this team as presently contructed going to better next year? Curry can get better, but he’s never going to be Shaq, Marbury’s best days are behind him, Lee & Balkman will never be all stars, neither will nate or jones.
Yes, Isiah’s acquired some nice talent, but last I checked the league wasn’t about collecting talent but winning games (although I bet IT cleans up in his fantasy league). Watching these Knicks makes you long for the good-old-days of one and done in the playoffs.
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:40 pmJones, I most definitely feel your pain. So much so, that i couldn’t even write about it after the game. I actually believe that there is some truth to the Isiah sanity thing right now. I honestly think that all the pressure is truly affecting his mind. His statements and substitution patterns have seemed to have lost it. He seems to have lost it to some degree. His line-up alterations are now about as crazy as Larry browns, but the craziest part is that he never even TRIES the best ones. Isiah needs to step down yesterday.
As humiliating yesterday’s loss to Sactown was, I was already in terrible spirits before two points were scored. Eddy and Zach were starting together again. This told me that Isiah never actually realized that this pairing is lethal, ONLY that he was trying to “send a message”.
For me the most frustrating aspect to the season is that I have not seen one single game that has been coached correctly. Not one. All I wanted this year was to see one stretch of games this year with Marbury and Lee starting, Craw and Curry off the bench, no dual minutes from Randloph and Curry, Q in a suit, Renaldo getting at least 20 minutes. Just a stretch of 8 games or something. Just ONE stretch. Yesterday’s decision to start Zach-Eddy indicates that it would never happen.
Jimmy, while I see more value in some of our players than you, perhaps you are right. Perhaps the one stretch that I’ve been longing for will never ever happen. Also, when Marbury was back in, you can see an obvious increase in ball movement.
How about Curry & Nate for Okafor and Carroll?
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:21 pmMODI- These guys quit on Isiah. When that happens, one of two things need to happen. Either the coach gotta go or the players who aren’t trying gotta go. In my eyes, I think Crawford, Curry and Miss-Q-Rich gotta go, because it seems to me that Dolan isn’t losing Zeke this season. These players either don’t have it, or aren’t trying. The time has come to blow this up if Isiah isn’t stepping down. Get these woefully overrated guys out of here. Let’s get some guys who specialize in things. Lets get a forward whose specialty is scoring. Lets get a shooting guard whose specialty is shooting from the outside with effectiveness. Lets get a center who is actually a center for the defense.
That trade is perfect, but I doubt the Bobcats would do it until after the season is over. If Charlotte finds out that Okafor doesn’t want to return and wants a bigger deal, they might be in it for a trade. I doubt the trade goes down, but I would be MORE than happy if they do make this trade a reality.
January 3rd, 2008 at 6:48 pm“Lets get a forward whose specialty is scoring”
Check. Ron Artest wants to come home and will be here next year PLUS some defense. I believe that the FULL maxed mid-level exception just might do it.
Lets get a shooting guard whose specialty is shooting from the outside with effectiveness. Lets get a center who is actually a center for the defense.
Curry and Balkman for Okafor and Carroll. Ist that deal better? Hell throw in Nate since we have so many 2 guards…
New Starting 5: Okafor, Randolph, Artest, Marbury and OJ Mayo!
Bench: Lee, Crawford, Carroll, Chandler, Jeffries
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:55 pmMODI- From your mouth to God’s ears! I would like to dump Crawford and add Antawn Jamison to this team, but that might be asking too much. I don’t think Ron is going to take a paycut by coming here, Modi. We can’t max him for more than 5 million per, and he is scheduled to earn 8 million next year. Malik Rose, Nate and Chandler for Artest might be the ticket if the Kings want to do something soon.
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:11 pmModi-
I too am amazed at how easily the ball moves around the court w/ Steph in. Isiah as I stated earlier has a poor ability to foresee sequences. Not only that, there are many times during games where he is sitting in that chair on the sideline as opposed to walking the sideline/ coaches box and being vocal. With such an inexperienced team (collectively) you have to be on top of them. I dont not favor his lay back approach or his body language from one possesion to the next. It seems as if he expects this bunch to execute profienctly without his tutorial.
For one, asking one man to run a Franchise and Coach it simultaneously may professionally massage your ego a bit, but realisticly without real basketball IQ’s surrounding you it will turn into what we are seeing. The logical explaination for HIS Franchise player’s tremenedous regression is not based on any one players acquistion(Zach)or how he is being micro managed,but how the PLAYER himself assess’s his development. Eddy is not mature or wise enough to realize how his deficiencies, poor shape, and OVERALL NBA knowledge is needed for his growth to continue.
Isiah and Mark A. ,over the course of last season made Eddy as effecient as anybody from a scoring stand point. It was just 2weeks ago that Curry’s inabilities were fairly exposed(by coach via media) ,critiqued, and against the Cavs Eddy’s Play proved Isiah was only wrong about Curry’s ongoing potential. If this…Curry really wants to be a force on the defensive-end, all he need do is apply himself- There is no effort at all in that department. But their is no desire to play defense “NOW” All Isiah hashed on this team(last 2 seasons) was scoring and offensive consistancy. Which is what everybody thought would fix these offense droughts they we went thru so often over the last few years.
Just wanted to point out to you one more thing….Look at every team who has won a title since 1999… The relationship between the coach and the teams best player (on the court), total trust. The Lakers,Spurs,Pistons,&Heat. Expect for Flip Saunders, these coaches are Hall of Fame Status, however each understand more than anything that Social Situations dictate what happens on the court.These New York Knickerbockers are not good enough YET to play thru all of these outside distractions,and inexperienced Staff. The last 12years have proven to me that experience is the number one ingredient for what we all long for.What coach outside of the afore mentioned have been able to to succeed with this much pressure and expectation.
Rest assured no matter what players you have on the court, no matter what their talent level, they can not win without a leader(s). Nor can they compete at the highest level without a comprehensive strategic script. As suspect as Jamal’s shot selection is.. he is the only Knick right now that is going to be a warrior and ride with Isiah!!
Yes he has lost his players…But after all that has transpired over his ruin here, what (Franchise)player is going to bat for him. He is by no means honorable ,he does not deserve this privilage any longer. Please someone,anyone.. give him a map.
January 4th, 2008 at 12:35 amEHUS- Nice theory, but this team needs a guy who blocks shots from the center position. You put Tim Duncan on the Knicks and we are a playoff team. Eddy Curry is a 6′10″ fat forward. He is a center only because he weighs nearly 300lbs. He has short arms, poor lateral movement and no athleticism to block shots. His defensive instincts never developed, so the speed needed to pick up his game he will always be 3 steps behind everyone else. He is FOREVER a step slow. You can forgive him if he were 20 years old. The man is 25. All this leadership talk is cute on paper, but you win this excessive talent on the baseline. Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Shaq and Udonis. Tim Duncan. The one common denominator is the big man on the baseline with the ability to give team just one shot at the basket and the ability to stuff your shot back down your throat if you’re a smaller guy coming into the paint. That’s what basketball is all about. All the heroic talk about leaders is bullshit in my opinion. Defense wins rings and Eddy Curry plain sucks on defense. That’s the bottom line. As they say in the parks…”Curry just can’t play”
January 4th, 2008 at 3:42 amJimmy, he probably won’t take the mid-level, but I’m wondering how many teams will offer him the full 6 years based on Artests questions about stability. The length of the contact might trump the yearly amount.
Ehus, many of us have given the map, but Isiah won’t use it!!! I swear that sometimes I think that he is tanking games purposely when he keeps his best players on the bench. But I agree that interior defense is #1 need with outside shooting next. Unlike most I believe that Curry could still be an asset to a team that pairs him up with a strong shotblocker and defender (see Marcus Camby and yes, Tyson Chandler!) that doesn’t need the ball.
January 4th, 2008 at 10:34 amModi,
January 4th, 2008 at 12:30 pmI’m beginning to sense that there may be some truth to that theory. It may be conspiratorial but then again, it is the N.B.A. and the NYK.
I also noted the lack of coaching, not calling out set plays, not calling TOs when it seemed clear that the players resorted to mano a mano playground tactics and away from the team concept. If it is true that we are in the Powerball, then it must be with the full blessings of JD. We the fans must simply bear it and find another pastime. As a fellow Jets fan, you know what’s good.
Steady, the not calling out set plays drives me crazy. Marbury is the only PG who ever calls a play and works the ball around. Nate and Jamal try to take their man off the dribble every time with the only exception being dumping it in to Curry or Zach… This drives me crazy to no end.
January 4th, 2008 at 1:42 pmJIM- I agree w/ you with reagards to a BIGMAN!! But while you have a fat slow responding foward/Center, He should still be laying opposition down on their backs.
1. I am sick of these knick-knack fouls he picks up. If your gonna foul somebody….FUCK HIM UP!
a. Josh Howard flys to the basket and uses off hand to deter Curry from a blk. and Clocks him in the mouth…As Josh drove to the hole I screamed aloud “Lay him out!!”. Curry comes out of the exchange with a golf ball nestled on his mouth. This is a result of weak and timid defense.
b. If the MAVS want to fight.. because we knock out one of their premire players, LETS DO IT!! , the worsty that could happen is a few suspensions,the team bands together again (see. DENVER BRAWL…SEE VAN GUNDY in Miami)
2. Intimidation on the Knicks behalf is at an ALL TIME low.
3. Fear over Respect..i rather you be scared of coming down my lane or my BASELINE..while great interior D is always needed…I would love to watch this New Breed of pre Madonna’s throw up prays in fear of getting Decked.
What happpen to the GAME INSIDE THE GAME?
January 4th, 2008 at 2:26 pmEhus,
January 4th, 2008 at 5:37 pmYou be tellin’ on yo self calling for that type of game. We were spose to be Nice and Nasty. All I see is a bunch of wusses! paid though, but wussies nevertheless.
EHUS- Curry is only aggressive around the dinner table. This guy is a joke in the paint. Expecting him to clobber people is like waiting for a shark to walk on water. This kid is the epitome of soft.
January 4th, 2008 at 6:10 pmEhus, I’m with you. Remeber the days with Oakley and Mason charging a toll if you came down the lane with patrick waiting as shotblocking insurance afterwards. Whe the Knicks oWNED home court and especially 4th quarters… Ahhhhhh the good old days…
January 4th, 2008 at 7:38 pmEhus,
At www.Knicksdefense.com, Eddie (too soft to get the y) is affectionately known as Puff (as in the Magic Dragon) or on some other days, some cats try to hook him up with Dorothy and round trip ticket to see the Wizard (now that we know he’s physically OK and just snackin’ all the time).
BTW, you NYK fans should come check us out over there and throw in some of your theories. We sure could use the LOLs.
January 4th, 2008 at 8:16 pmLet me seconds Steady’s statement: knicksDefense is the best Knick website on the internet by far. Not only are all the commenters knowledgeable but they are actually REAL fans!
January 4th, 2008 at 8:51 pmSteady//JIM- Indeed!,However I will say “Whatever he ate off of Last Night’s menu… !@#$%, Give that man a second helping prunto. “Chef!! One more special order…THAT’S RIGHT- Hold the ZACHPEPPER!!!”
Modi- When you taking it back LIKE THAT.. you are being real….It seemed like only yesterday’.. Marv Albert,4th quarter crowd going nuts,felt like MSG could make the EARTH Shake’n'Quake.
MJ put on his best Hiking Boots to Climb Mount P.E. and plant His flag(ANDONE!), Though it was on Patrick,He skipped on Kiki VandeIcanShootFromFarAWAY’, John0-17Starks,& Charles ‘THEOAKMAN’ Oakley(TOP10 play of ALLTIME). ‘All of whom, if fate had linked/employed them to this current franchise .. it may have restored some of THE GUTZ that have been spilling all over the road(1-12). Right the Good OL’days!!!
January 5th, 2008 at 2:46 amMODI- TWO WORDS…, RON ARTEST. It is very risky but, If it will make Richardson a memory or a reserve permanently i would sign for that yesterday,in half a heart beat.
January 5th, 2008 at 2:57 amEHUS- I think we should hold the Monterey JackCrawford cheese in the 4th quarter. We should have been given some Stephon Marbury in the 4th quarter as the main cuisine.
Ron Artest is that nasty type individual we are lacking. He is someone who would bring the fire back in Stephon Marbury 1-2-3. Ron is also someone who would stand up to Crawford and slap some sense into him in the locker. I couldn’t play with a punk like Crawford. Crawford is as soft as they come. See how Nate Robinson fouls hard? He NEVER gives anyone a layup. It would be nice to see Crawford make someone feel uncomfortable with a hard shot foul once in a while.
January 5th, 2008 at 11:51 amIt was nice seeing Miss-Q-Rich spend more time posting up the hotdog vendor than he did posting up on the court. That STIFF only took 2 shots all game long. Thank the LORD for that!
January 5th, 2008 at 11:52 am[…] Bird gets a pass for his failings (this fact has been chronicled by MODI at “Cosellout” better than by any other writer or sports media outlet) while […]
March 25th, 2008 at 10:21 am[…] Bird gets a pass for his failings (this fact has been chronicled by MODI at “Cosellout” better than by any other writer or sports media outlet) while […]
April 17th, 2008 at 1:33 pmWhy don’t you compare Isiah to another Larry? I am thinking about Larry Brown, and his 23 wins. I do not understand a single reason why would you keep defending uncompetent Isiah. Go back and read what you said for the expectations of this season.
April 17th, 2008 at 7:17 pmnenad, I already DID compare Isiah to Larry Brown and in many articles criticized isiah’s pitiful coaching performance this year. I’ve been his harshest coaching critic and advocated his firing back in December. I also wrote this about his coaching a few months back. http://www.cosellout.com/?p=192
This particular article is about the MEDIA and their responsibility. The NY Daily News was just flat out wrong no matter what your personal opinion about isiah’s employment.
April 17th, 2008 at 7:45 pmI do not recall you said anything agains Isiah. What is about your book “Isiah Genious”
April 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pmNYDaily News was in support of Isiah’s firing, so if you support that now, why would you critize them.
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March 6th, 2009 at 9:21 pmi love this song so much!!!
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:14 pm